to get the woman to remove her shoes or is she BU by being rude?

[teddiegoestopeckham]

my BIL came over today with his new partner to meet me and DH (his brother). They came over for a few hours for a late lunch/tea.

Anyway i open the door for them (BIL already holding his coat :) ). anyway all the hellos, hugs, come in etc.
BIL automatically takes his shoes off and puts some of the slippers we have out for guests.
She looks very shocked by this and doesn't make a move to either take off her shoes or even ask if i would like her to take her shoes off (i am barefoot)

Anyway when I realise that she isn't taking her shoes off and asks her nicely and politely if she would mind taking her shoes off and if she would like we have slippers for guests (we have a pile like the ones BIL put on and they are very obvious)

BIL looks a bit awkward at his point and then she says' 'no, thank you' and walks though.

I was just stunned and so was BIL obviously.

But it would have been rude to say anything so i just let her carry on. And told DH when he came in about 15mins later not to say anything.

I'm japanese - and to me leaving your shoes on when entering someones house is a no no. I have managed over the years to be okay if someone just walks in to pick something up or drop something off. but if someone is coming in properly. They take their shoes off.

Even forgetting the culture I and this comes from - sure it is rude to reply like that when you are a guest into someones home?

or AIBU in asking people to remove their shoes upon entering??
I'm doubting both now...

I would also be horrified if someone came into my house and took their shoes off. Talk about taking liberties!

I think she should have taken the shoes off. It is polite to do as the host wishes. Having said that I wouldn't want to wear someone else's slippers at all. She wasn't to know that they had just been washed. I just wouldn't fancy wearing slippers that someone else had worn. They could have athletes foot, cheese and verrucas in them.

no way would i take off my shoes in someone elses house nor expect guests to do so in my house

you have to wear shoes to concentate Rhone? Im interested in why. (not being sarky but genuinely interested)

Oh; and the idea that someone would want you to take your shoes off in their house but not say and then judge you after you had left is beyond horrific. That's abominably, unacceptably rude.

I've only ever been to one person's house where you had to take your shoes off. Bloody weird really - I suppose it must be a class and cultural thing, I'd never been to the house of anyone that posh before

Kal I'd be sitting there going "Oh Christ, what if my socks don't 100% match, what if I have a hole somewhere I can't see, what if they smell and my nose isn't working properly and I just can't tell, what if I have some kind of toe-cheese magically stuck to the outside of my foot [rational], what if these socks are actually frayed at the heel and I can't see but they can, oh shit my feet are freezing, argh, what do I do, can I sit on my feet to keep them warm but what if they think I'm being rude, if they're the kind of people who think I should have my shoes off in the house they're probably the kind of people who would freak out if I put my feet on the couch...." ETC.

i'm not posh.
just clean ;)

I've always offered to take my shoes off in someone elses house. At home we always take our shoes off. I'd prefer if guests took shoes off too, but won't ask them to. Although if they are going upstairs where it is carpetted and we have 2 small DCs, and if it's somebody I know well, then I might ask if they could take their shoes off.

OP....YANBU by expecting guests to take their shoes off, I thought that would be the polite thing to do. But YABU to ask them to wear used slippers, that seems a bit neurotic really. Your BIL's OH didn't know that you wash these slippers after each use. If you asked me to wear slippers, I would have done reluctantly, inwardsly cringing, but woudn't have said anythign because I wouldn't want to offend you, especially meeting you for the first time.

cotes i guess you keep your shoes on in your house?
and i guess you put your feet on the couch??
I didn't realise people actually did this!!!!

(I'm fine with feet on couch but only with shoes off)

I have never explicitly asked anyone to do this, but since FiL tramped enormously smelly dog shit all over our kitchen and living room, then put his dog shit shoes up on a beanbag before we could stop him I am seriously considering some guest slippers and a no shoes rule

I say - your house, your rules and she was being phenomenally rude. Cultural reasons or no cultural reasons. I have a slight foot problem and, if not wearing socks, may have taken OP to one side to explain this and say that I didn't want to contaminate floors or slippers, but i would never have just marched in in my shoes. And yes, BIL should have warned her beforehand.

I take my shoes off in my own house if I want to put my feet on the couch, yes, but I regard it as a measure of complete relaxation and, actually, vulnerability.

You know what, vulnerability is the word. I think I'd I'd be fairly happy to have my shoes off in a close friend or relative's house but I would be incredibly uncomfortable with having to expose myself like that in stranger/professional contact's house. Unshod feet are strictly for people you can relax completely around. [gavel]

Agree with XCakes, the BIL is the one really at fault here - he should have been entirely explicit about it. I still think she should have done it (I mean I would, to keep the peace, but I would be uncomfortable the whole time) but it was ruder of him not to put it in context for her.

I would say it (hopefully ) goes without saying that I am very fastidious about wiping my feet very very well before I enter a house; tramping muck or dog poo around is not on at all. Vom.

A small sample study, but interesting:

How Dirty Are Your Shoes? Good Morning America's (GMA) Test Results

In a recent study, researchers at the University of Arizona found nine different species of bacteria on people's shoes. These types of bacteria can cause infections in our stomachs, eyes and lungs.

The study also found bacteria live longer on our shoes than in other places. As we walk, we constantly pick up new debris that feeds the growth of more bacteria.

The researchers tested to see if bacteria on shoes would transfer to the tile floors in a house. More than 90 percent of the time it did. Carpeting harbors bacteria even more.

"GMA's" test results were "dirtier than a toilet seat," said Jonathan Sexton, a research assistant at the University of Arizona's College of Public Health. "Toilet seats generally have 1,000 bacteria or less, and these are in the millions so there's a lot more bacteria here."

Children under age 2 are the most vulnerable to the germs we track into the house, because they play on the floor and put their hands in their mouths an average of 80 times an hour.

"That means that your child can possibly be exposed to every single bacteria that you picked up on your shoe [...] all the bacteria from the park, the store, everywhere you went that day," Sexton said.

Out of "GMA's" 10 tests, nine contained coliform, a type of bacteria that comes mostly from human and animal waste.

abcnews.go.com/GMA/Consumer/story?id=5177409&page=1#.TtZkFbIUq30

'You know what, vulnerability is the word. I think I'd I'd be fairly happy to have my shoes off in a close friend or relative's house but I would be incredibly uncomfortable with having to expose myself like that in stranger/professional contact's house. Unshod feet are strictly for people you can relax completely around.'

That's what I was saying as well, asking me to take my shoes off and put slippers on, is almost like asking me to take my clothes off and put pyjamas on. (not quite I'll admit, but close to it)

I think saying "but I wiped my shoes on the mat" is equivalent of saying "but I smoked next to the open window". Doesn't matter, the bacteria/ carcinogenics/ lead etc. have been introduced in the room and will linger.

I don't understand why people stick to something when they know it is unhealthy and potentially dangerous. We have no trouble accepting car seat-belts, no smoking signs and a host of things to keep us safer and healthier. Why this stubborn clinging to shoes inside the house? It is just a matter of common-sense cleanliness.

I don't think it is common sense cleanliness though, I think it's paranoia... Obviously if someone's stood in something particular and it's actually on their shoes that's different, but just ew, shoes have touched the ground, the ground is filthy, that doesn't bother me

Carpets/shoes don't even make this list of things that are dirtier than your toilet seat

tabula what is the source of this data? I linked to a study above done by University of Arizona along with GMA that shows that shoes harbour dangerous bacteria that make them far, far dirtier than toilet seats (small sample, but no reason to think it is not generally applicable).

I had read an academic study a long time back on the gross stuff picked by shoes every time you enter a public toilet - it was quite an eye-opener. I'll try to see if I can find it.

I'm curious - if you found a number of studies showing that shoes indoors are indeed unhygienic, would you change your habits?

I don't let DD play on the floor outside my house. I certainly wouldn't in a public toilet. But, you could come into my house from a toilet and walk all over the floor and she would lick play on that floor.

To the person who said it was 'posh'... Are all Somali, Japanese, Canadian, Moroccan, Hawaiian etc. people posh? They all follow the no shoes rule.

I'm not disputing that shoes are far dirtier than toilet seats, I know though that nearly everything I've ever read about studies on how dirty things are concludes that they're dirtier than toilet seats, lol, my suspicion is that toilet seats are maybe not that dirty (if you think about it, they don't usually come in to contact with anything other than skin)

and no, I'd not change my habits - I've never asked people to take their shoes off, I've had a dog, I have cats, we're all pretty healthy.

Like I said, I would absolutely take my shoes off if someone asked me to and I wouldn't even say anything about it, I just wouldn't like having to.

Oh I do love these shoes off threads.

It is rude for a guest to refuse to take their shoes off if asked.

However, it is equally rude for the host to ask the guest to take their shoes off if they clearly don't want to.

So you were BOTH being unreasonable.

The thing is, Tabula, loads of people don't wash their hands after going to the toilet, or wear the same underwear for weeks or plenty of other unhygienic habits. Yes, and most are reasonably healthy (though god knows what bacteria they pass on in their environment).

But no one says that washing hands after going to the toilet is paranoia. It is just considered normal cleanliness. So why not the same approach regarding the even more varied and harmful bacteria on shoes?

Because you directly use your hands for food preparation, eating, handling absolutely everything - anything on your hands, ends up in your mouth and your hands are definitely not clean after you've been to the toilet unless you wear disposable glove I suppose, lol.

Any shoes taken off at the door have still brought bacteria into the house, I'm assuming anyone who doesn't allow shoes in their house doesn't disinfect that bit of floor everytime anyone visits, or before they go into the rest of the house? In my house, my front door has a small patch of floor, in one direction is my living room in the other my stairs - so everytime I walk down or upstairs I'm walking through the bit where shoes would have to have been anyway.

Most people are going to use their hands to take their shoes off, then touch things in your house that they never would have touched with their feet. If bacteria can go from the bottom of a shoe, to a floor, to other things, it can go from a shoe to a hand to other things...

If you let anything from outside into your house, they bring bacteria with them - I just think taking shoes off is not that important.

I think unless you have lived in Japan it's hard to understand just how out of order it is to enter a Japanese person's house with shoes on - it would be like someone walking into your house and taking a big dump in the middle of the floor, that disgusting.

I am normally firmly on the fence on the shoes on/off, but where the houseowner is from such a culture, there can be no discussion on the matter imo.