To just give up now?

[Turtleshark]

With my 11 year old DS that is.

I feel like I can't take any more. It sounds terrible but I've been dreaming of the day he leaves home. He wakes up, starts shouting at everyone in the house, refuses to get dressed, wash, eat, clean teeth, put on suncream and be ready on time.

Then he comes home from school, shouts some more, hits his sisters if they come near him, refuses to do homework, complains about dinner, refuses to take a shower and go to bed.

We have tried everything. We are not unreasonable people - we are fairly strict but flexible but nothing works. I have stayed calm, shouted, used reward charts, everything. He has pretty much always been like this.

Now I've had enough. We are all sick of his temper and constant negativity and the house has a better atmosphere when he's not there. I can't be bothered fighting and I've told him it's HIS responsibility to be ready for school, do homework, put on suncream etc. He knows about skin cancer and says he doesn't care.

AIBU?

Anyone else with a child like this and what did you do?

WhyAlwaysBoris thanks so much, I do worry about our relationship in the future especially on days when it's so hard to be patient and he is really pushing me to the limit. DH was apparently a nightmare as a child but a lovely teenager so I live in hope.

WhyAlwaysBoris :)

I'm also thinking 'Asperger's'...........

I have read through the first couple of links now. Some of it makes sense, but other parts are just not my DS. He has a terrible rote memory and one of his strengths is definitely his imagination and creativity. He shows a lot of empathy although possibly more towards animals than people! He also makes highly perceptive observations about what others are thinking, e.g. today when he was shouting down that he wasn't going to school tomorrow, he added "Mum, I know in your head you're saying Yes you are, but I'm not!" That was exactly what I was thinking!

it all sounds such hard work. Just a couple of things to add.

does he have an escape route for when he's angry? A den if you like? He needs somewhere to go to cool off.

I have used flash cards before for a ten year old. You can make them yourself and put on a keying. Lots of emotions like angry jealous sad etc. He shows you the card (probably by shoving it your face!) and goes to his hiding cool off place. you follow him after a time and ask if he wants to talk about it. It's easier to flash the card than verbalise and it would Give you a heads up on what he's feeling- I was surprised that sometimes the emotion was one I wouldn't have predicted.

For a mother/son adventure, could you go camping, make and cook on a real fire etc?

I'm not us about how this works ethically and morally, but I'd be tempted to slyly video or voice record one of his rages. PLay it back to him when he's calm and ask him what he thinks about it. Hopefully leading onto some tactics of what he thinks he could do to prevent an outburst. I'll probably get flamed for that one

Sorry if that's not helpful, but a least it's more stuff to think about.

Just a thought, as someone who really has no idea about these things..... did your DS get a cuddle and some praise and a good night kiss for doing what he did manage to do (an attempt at the homework and a shower)? We all like some recognition for a job well done and effort made.

I think your DH is living in another world if his concerns here boil down to whether your DS will get admitted into private schools in the future. He needs to see the real issues right under his nose in the present. There is so much more at stake here, and you have only a few more years before the DS will become a completely unmanageable teenager, and as mentioned above, staying in a school may become an issue. You will need to get on the same page and tackle this no matter how much stigma your DH thinks may be attached.

'He is very jealous of his younger sister (2 years younger) - I would even go so far as to say he hates her. People tell me this is normal (I don't have any siblings) and DH doesn't seem concerned by it,' -- why is he unconcerned that this jealousy expresses itself in hitting the younger sister, not being willing to wait for the jam or the toast at breakfast, or that the first words out of his mouth in the morning are angry ones directed at this sister? Where is he when all the shenanigans are going on with the DS wrt homework and showers? Your DDs are being negatively affected by what is going on whether they are showing signs of it or not.

I would be looking more at Oppositional Defiant Disorder (which is sometimes found with ADHD). Another link here with other problems also discussed. (Scroll down to ODD).

OP, I don't know what's wrong with your son and I'm not qualified to comment but from all of those who have more experience there may be pointers to something fundamental that he needs to be supported for.

What does strike me though from your posts and please, I don't mean to cause offence, is the fact that you have never said that you love him or like him in spite of the way he behaves. I am sure you do but does your son know that you do and does he have the security to know that whatever he does he will always be supported at home.

I hope this all works out and would just like to say that your son is in a new place and a foreign country, in a newish school, possibly uprooted and probably having the first surge of hormones. The hormones alone are challenging when there has been no change and he may be feeling very insecure and challenged.

Good luck OP, I hope it all works out.

Thanks again for the helpful posts.

DS went to bed ok after a good night kiss. When I looked at what he had done for school, only a tiny amount was done even though he sat for maybe 40 mins in the end, but I didn't say anything and he can explain himself to his teacher today.

I talked to DH last night and he agreed we need to arrange an assessment. What he really wants to avoid is going to the nearest and easiest place and seeing goodness knows which doctor so we will have to do a lot of research and it will be next summer before we're in UK.

It's easy to say we should just move and put DS first but it's not as simple as just getting another job. Europe is not in a good way at the moment!

We also talked a bit about home-schooling. I have wondered about this for a while but DH doesn't like the idea. Not sure if I could do it to be honest, but I do think DS would love idea.

This morning DS didn't mention not going to school, and got ready without too much fussing.

Hi Turtleshark. Just read half of the thread and it sounds very like Aspergers...have you considered that at all? There is a wide spectrum but it does sound as though he has emotional trouble. Is he particularly gifted at something in particular that you can channel his energies into?

I'm not convinced about Adperger's but dong some reading at the moment and will decide where we need to go for assessment.

DS is very creative and inventive - he has an amazing and unusual brain.

It sounds like a bit of a better evening/morning, I hope it continues for you.
To be honest an assessment hasn't changed a lot for us, we still have to live and cope with life iykwim. What is has given us is access to information about different strategies that we can employ (through our own research and through talking to others including on here) For what it is worth my own ds can be perceptive and empathetic however it is on his own terms.

What he lacks is self perception and the perception that others are not always on the same wave length or sometimes even on the same wave galaxy as him and he finds it frightening, confusing and very annoying to have people do things which to him are so obviously not what they should be doing. So for example the shirt incident would make ds shout as the shirt was not where it should be and he would have been unable to get past that fact and his fear, confusion and annoyance would have lead to him shouting.

I have to admit that when I can I do make sure things are where he expects them to be but if we have a shirt incident I ignore until he has calmed down (don't even respond to the first shout) if and when he asks me nicely I will tell him. We talk often about anger with ds, it is his default emotion as he is unsure how to express other emotions. We have been talking a lot about how anger is useful for him (it can diffuse emotions such as fear and confusion if he has a good blow out) and appropriate ways to do this and how it isn't useful for him (alienates others, scares others, doesn't lead to the solution he wants) I have also talked about trying to decide what matters eg...is the shirt worth getting angry about. He is starting to very slowly get to grips with this himself and can now identify afterwards (at times) eg..."that was a small thing to get cross about eh mum"

Sorry, you've had a few suggestions of that already!

yawningmonster yes thanks we did have an ok morning so here's hoping he comes home in the right frame of mind to do his homework today. Not sure whether to ask or not what the teacher said. DH even sent him back to brush his teeth "again" as they were not at all clean, and I braced myself, but with some high-pitched complaining as he went back upstairs, he did go and do it.

I also try to make sure things are quite predictable for DS, and I've also learnt that flexibility doesn't help, e.g. letting him do homework at a later time as a one-off. He would then refuse to do it at the normal time the next day. I could do that with the dds, they would get that it was a one-off. I find it hard to get the balance between picking my battles and letting him run the show - for example if there was something he didn't want to wear I probably wouldn't push it as I know we would have a huge scene whereas with the dds I would tell them I'd spent good money on the shoes or whatever and they need to wear them! Which is not fair really.

Also just wondering...those of you whose dcs have a diagnosis of AS, would you say that sticking to rules and strict boundaries has helped? Just asking as a friend of mine has a son with AS (age 10, diagnosed at 5 I think) and they are totally laid back and don't seem to enforce many boundaries. They are also having huge problems with their son to the point that school are now refusing to have him. I always thought she must know what she's doing and what seemed to me as not really dealing with his behaviour must be part of the management of his difficulties.

absolutely rock solid boundaries, ds doesn't get the one off situation either, he is very black and white in his thinking and needs clear enforced boundaries

Some of the things you have said have also made me wonder about PDA
(Pathological Demand Avoidance)
link to information here

The reason for mentioning this is because some of the strategies that work well for children with AS are counter-productive for children with PDA.

It might be worth reading up on this too in case any of it rings any bells.
I know that my sister had a diagnosis of AS for her son which she never thought quite fitted and then when the diagnosis of PDA was made it all slotted into place and made sense. It's still very difficult, but at least the family is able to use strategies that work better for someone with PDA.

Sorry, posted too soon. The reason for posting this is also because the rock solid boundaries really don't work for someone with PDA - on the contrary, sometimes very considerable flexibility and lateral thinking is needed.

You have my sympathy. You have a son who has serious problems,and does sound like he may be on the autistic spectrum. This is a huge spectrum, and there are many different types of problem, and coping stratagies, nothing applies to every child on the autistic spectrum - many autistic children DO have good imagination. In my opinion, PDA is just a waste of time at this stage, it is one of thousands of official and unofficial sttempts to narrow down and catagorise and predict different types of aspergers, there is no evidence that this is a distinct group of children at all, and in a few years, this diagnosis will be thrown away, and a new range of diagnosis will be in vogue - it is all "progress" of a type, in a totally academic and rhetorical way, but no help to you,. I would ask for an assessment for autism at the first oppertunity, not from the first medic you meet, but from the first chance you get to be refered to an expert.

I am not, of course, attempting to make any kind of diagnosis - that would be bonkers - but I just can't agree that a diagnosis of PDA is a waste of time.

I agree that nothing applies to every child on the autistic spectrum, but a diagnosis of PDA can be helpful I believe. It doesn't solve any problems on its own, and it isn't a cure, but it can be a very useful pointer to helpful strategies and an indicator of unhelpful ones.

PDA isn't aspergers there are distinct and important differences and the strategies that help families cope with AS don't help with PDA. PDA is a pervasive developmental disorder on the autistic spectrum - and I agree that the autistic spectrum is very broad. I know that my sister is quite certain that it isn't a waste of time. What was a waste of time was trying to apply Asperger syndrome to her son when it didn't fit. It was important for everyone involved in his care to realise that the strategies that often worked for someone with AS did not work for her son.

Oh, honey. I absolutely, 100% feel...well, not your pain, but definitely your DD's! Your DS's behavior is so like my brother's.

He was always a very difficult child. He hated surprises, would go into rages at things like not knowing that our parents had gotten the joke candles for his birthday, the kind that don't go out? He threw a complete full on meltdown at that the year he was 12.

He loves to argue, he loves to "be right", he has no understanding of why anyone would think any differently than he does. He can be cruel, but in his mind it is okay because the people he has hurt are stupid or wrong.

He can be extremely charming, if it serves him to be so. He does not have Aspbergers, but he has an extraordinarily combative, difficult personality.

I don't have much advice other than to say that you are not imagining it or doing anything wrong. I would suggest leaving him to it. That has worked best with my brother, just an absolute refusal to engage. It is not always possible, especially as your DS is so young, but I would say DO NOT ENGAGE as much as you are able.

Thanks again everyone. The links to PDA and Aspergers are helpful to read, but I have to say that CheerfulYank, I appreciate your post most of all. I have to say that deep down my instincts tell me that he is not on the autistic spectrum. My instinctive approach IS just to leave him alone as much as possible. He is happy when he is doing what he wants.

I don't know, I guess if you take your child for assessment and they rule out a whole bunch of disorders, then what? You have a difficult kid you still have to deal with - I suppose you could say that's ODD but isn't that just a fancy term for a really difficult kid?? It's not necessarily anything diagnosable.

Oh, forgot to say, CheerfulYank - you said your brother can be extremely charming, well that's DS if he thinks it's worth being charming and sociable, i.e. if he thinks there's something in it for him!

OP, I have a nephew like this.
He causes misery in his wake. Argues all the time. Angry, angry, angry. The older he gets the more pronounced his behaviour and the more unacceptable to everyone.

I will advise you what I have advised my BIL. Get your DS assessed. You cannot come up with any strategies until you know what you are and what you aren't dealing with.