.. to be really hacked off with my Mum over vaccinations

[MrsTwinks]

Me and DH are TTC. A passing comment from a relative about my mum and doctors got me thinking about my jabs so thought I'd better get my rubella checked.

Just back from the doctor and it turns out all vaccinations on me stopped when I was about 2. Everything. Now IIRC 1988 was pre the MMR scare, but even so I could understand that, except its all of them. They have recommended I have a polio and tetanus now, but I'm also missing BCG etc.

AIBU to be really fucked off at my mum for a)kinda for just doing it to start with but honestly really b) never bloody telling me!!

I work with kids, shes been on at me to TTC for literally years, and not once has she mentioned me not having had my jabs. The tetanus one really fucks me off too because as a teen I cut my leg open really badly on rusty metal, it got infected so bad even the holes from the stitches got all infected and she didn't let/make sure I had a tetanus booster. I suspect also she never told my Dad because he went ape when I nearly didn't have my meningitis c when I was 17. He was a SAHP with me at first as he was a student so I wonder if maybe it was only him who took me in the first place.

I'm still really mad 'cos I ust discovered it ontop of alot of other stuff she did but now its like she coulda been playing russian roulette with not only my health as a child but my kid's if I hadnt thought to check it iykwim.

and breathe

Um bruffin - I haven't avoided vaccinating because if mitochondrial concerns. Although they have been considered certainly as ds1 does have some potential signs of mt dysfunction. Actually what is published regarding mt regression (and the more recent work in cytokines etc) is a little different than what the researchers will say at conferences or of you talk to them directly.

We have weighed up risks as well - just come o a different conclusion for our family. Well for ds2 and ds3 - I was first in the queue for men C vaccination for ds1 - I have been where you are.

Ds1 costs the nhs very little despite his severe disabilities. He will cost social services a lot eventually, but his disabilities affect us and him more than anyone else or currently the tax payer. It's in our interests to get it right when it comes to ds2 and ds3 and to weigh up the risks because frankly we're the ones who will be left to pick up any pieces. My mother is deaf in one ear from measles. The last time I said anything about vaccination to her she said she felt strongly that ds2 and ds3 shouldn't be vaccinated - life isn't always black and white. She's clearly aware of the risk of measles as she was exrremely ill with it and left pernnently damaged. And yet thinks we should avoid vaccination. Wow. She came under a lot of pressure to have the swine flu vaccination - her bosses shut up when someone with severe damage from the vaccination (agree damage - not w controversial case) came onto the books.

It was easy to make a decision when our understanding was very black and white. Bit harder now there's all sorts of greys - that come with potentially life changing consequences (whichever choice is made).

"But they're happy to bandy around terms like 'murder weapon' (another thread) and accuse me of all sorts of idiocy and child neglect etc..."

I'm not doing that at all. I realise that Leonie and Saintly have ongoing health issues with their children, but please can you both accept that some of us chose (after looking into it very carefully in my case) to go ahead with vaccinations.

The other "what if" that would be equally difficult to live with is what if I didn't vaccinate and DD caught one of the diseases and developed complications as a result. I looked at the risk factors for my child and decided that the benefits outweighed the risks in her case.
Please can you accept that this is probably the case for a lot of parents. I am in no way criticising your decision not to vaccinate, but please don't criticise mine to go ahead.

Bunbaker - of course I accept that most people vaccinate. I haven't criticised anyone for vaccinating (ever). I vaccinated ds1. I have only ever defended my decisions regarding ds2 and ds3 and occasionally attempted to explain why we made that decision.

I don't see it as remotely my business whether someone else chooses to vaccinate or not. That's up to them. Ds2 and ds3 will have to make their own mind up at some stage - it won't be my decision.

Vaccines are such a difficult choice for many, and its true that we are making that choice, not just for our own children, but for our grandchildren.
Our own children will have very differing parenting views from our own, so if we do decided either way, we need to inform our children.

my children are all vaccinated. I have looked briefly in to this, but again unbiased info is hard to find, so i depend on my gp , peads, and our sons immnunologist for imformation about medication and treatments.
we live with the russion roulette thing all the time, and so anything that will lesson the risk of diseases that are returning to our doors, is welcomed.
I also see the living results in my family from non vaccination, and it does colour your view.
I dont believe the autism view at all, or its not the only factor, and we still cant prevent it, by just removing vaccines from our kids. however, i have done the best i could for instance, in lessoning the chances of my kids having rubella during pregnancy, and having whooping cough at a very young age. members of my family have had their vacinations because with their medical conditions, one of these diseases would kill them. why put the at risk and further risk?

Actually, I have no problems with people who refuse vaccines. I just wish the whole world would take responsibility for their actions. This would mean:

1. Proper, scientifically-based and peer reviewed research into the real risks of vaccine damage, establishing a solid body of medical evidence - so that in vaccination, we can have evidence-based medicine. Research is to be ongoing and constantly updated.

Then, when we have this, we go to steps 2 and 3, to run concurrently:

2. Where a child is demonstrably vaccine-damaged, based on the above body of evidence, the company responsible for producing the vaccine would be financially liable for all care costs. For life.

3. Where non-vaccinated child A (due to being too young for said vaccine) is shown by the evidence available to have been infected with a vaccine-preventable disease from child B, whose parents had refused vaccine, and where child A developed complications leading to lifelong disability, the parents of child B would be liable to pay care costs. For life.

That way everyone would know exactly what the possible consequences of their choices might be.

Who are the 'Sheeple masses' oh, enlightened ones without any medical training?

Erm - that would be the likes of you and me, NY. Baaaaaaaaaaah. And all that.

"1) Proper, scientifically-based and peer reviewed research into the real risks of vaccine damage, establishing a solid body of medical evidence - so that in vaccination, we can have evidence-based medicine. Research is to be ongoing and constantly updated."

We have this already. Massive amounts of research, ongoing, peer reviewed and top quality. Its generally ignored by a certain section who prefer tin-foil hatted basement blog writers as sources of knwledge.

True, neuromantic. But I live in hope that the science deniers will one day wake up and see the light. Silly of me, I know.

What about d) pointy things. Ds1 caught rubella from a vaccinated child. Had he been a pregnant woman then who woukd have been liable? The mother who didn't realise a vaccinated child coukd have rubella or the vaccine company for producing a vaccine that didn't work. Ds1 didn't pass it on as we stayed in.

When ds1 (who has been vaccinated against measles) had a measles type rash I was told to bring him to the doctors and then told to wait in a busy surgery. When I pointed out that might not be wise I was put in a side room with a baby. This was around the time I lost the will to live. Woukd be rather unfair to blame me in that case surely? Maybe I could counter sue the surgery for being idiots (although ds1 had had the jab anyway so perhaps I'd be let off :rolls eyes: )

They used to do c) in America. Vaccine companies paid into a fund which was used for vaccine damage payouts. They paid more when the shots were more dangerous.so they paid more per mmr shit than per DT, and more again for the dtp. They stopped that - which seemed a rather backward step.

In the UK you can only get compensation paid for a vaccine death if the individual dies after the age of 2. If they die before the age of two, even in without doubt cases you will not be entitled to compensation. now I don't suppose you'd care much if your baby had been killed, but seems a bit of a kick in the teeth?

Science deniers? Um not really. I've spoken at length to many people carrying out research in this area. :shrugs: And ds1's doctors. :shrugs again:

Oh typo mmr shot, not shit. Hmmm.

In case d), the vaccine company, obviously. And there is clearly a strong case for ongoing development of better, longer-lasting and less risky vaccines.

UK law is clearly wrong not to compensate in all cases, and the US compensation scheme should not have been abolished. I have no quarrel with that point at all.

As for your final point - I'm not saying that the science is perfect, more research is always useful, but I notice that no-one has addressed the point of what happens to parents who lose a child, or end up with a permanently disabled child, because of another parent's refusal to vaccinate. That is where the responsibility issue lies - not at taking the risks for your own children, but presuming to take them for the children of others.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. And it all depends on what kind of research, doesn't it?
There are many on here that claim to be experts who then link, as proof of their position, conspiracy theory blogs and crusading uninformed untrained ill educated lone wolf types.

pointythings - you seem to be wanting that cast iron thing (which is always thorwn at anyone even daring to mention vaccine damage) - something to blame.

there are times where life is not so black and white.

in the case of someone who willingly and knowingly take stheir infectious child out into company - well, a little more clear cut.

but what about the scenario jimjams outlined? the one where you are asked to take an infectious child into the waiting room a the doctor's surgery, or the out-of-hours place?

when dd2 had chicken pox, she was really ill. she needed to see a doctor. I was loathe to take her to the surgery because sh ewas still infectious. the only alternative offered was the out of hours - same problem (and the additional one of severely ASD dd1 in an unfamiliar setting).

it was only when I near-enough had a breakdown that the doctor called me back to speak to me (dd2's sight was in danger) - note spoke to me, not saw dd2.

I had similar treatment for the measles-like rash (which wasn't measles in the end) the following year.

how on earth would it be my fault if I had taken the doctor's advise, gone to the surgery, and another person had contracted measles following contact with dd2? why would it not be the fault of the doctor/PCT/nhs? especially since the vaccine is hardly 100% anyway.

it is not as simple as finding someone to blame. it never is. (and I can tell you - somehting to blame does jackshit at teh end of the day. it doesn't make anything right)

"There are many on here that claim to be experts who then link, as proof of their position, conspiracy theory blogs and crusading uninformed untrained ill educated lone wolf types."
and count reading Richard Halveson and Andrew Wakefields books as gospel and don't look any deeper.
Just because they are not big pharma doesn't mean they don't have $$ signs in their eyes.

Well ds1 attends a school where there are children damaged by disease and chikdren damaged by vaccines and children damaged by birth or genetics. And in many cases for reasons that are not yet understood. All the children will need 24 hour care for the rest of their lives. We're all very much in it together.

Tbh we're all pretty aware that life throws shit at you and you deal with it the best you can. We've ALL lost the comfortable armchair black and white view and understand there are no guarantees in this life. Not for anyone. There's no stand up rowing or mud slinging. More an understanding that we all make the best choices we can and that those decisions are not always easy. I'm not sure that many of us fully trust the medical system although we recognise individual doctors often do the best they can.

Incidentally we suspect ds1 was damaged as a result of his immune system (and think this for various reasons I won't bother to go into). But we have no idea whether it was virus or vaccine that did it. Could be either. Doctors not sure either, but have been happy to run tests as they become available and discuss what that means for siblings. Although we have all agreed highly invasive tests such as an MRI which would require a GA for ds1 aren't worth doing at the monent. Over the last year we've been told on several occasions that we're a bit too early, but in maybe ten years time we might get more answers. In the meantime we adjust our models as new papers are published or as we speak to researchers. And make the best decisions we can.

Um for the millionth time my decisions have been based on talking to researchers at IMFAR, talking to researchers at Kennedy krieger talking to ds1's neurologist, his geneticist and two of his paediatricians (all on the NHS btw)

Apologies for talking to sensible people. Wouldn't it make life easier for you if I'd consulted the local crystal healer.

Silverfrog, most gps will have a seperate room at the surgery for contagious cases. My DS was put in such a room when he had CP.

Saintly - nobody is saying that it is black and white, however all anyone wants is a bit of honesty.
Claiming you have done research and then putting up links or quoting whale or mercola is not research.(I am not talking about you Saintly)
There are claims oft repeated on here ie Silverfrogs claim that mmr uptake was in freefall before Wakefield made his claims, 2 minutes of googling showed this is not the case. She was just quoting whale yet again but had never followed it up to make sure it was true.
There have posters on here that have claimed to done their research, checked up on the figures on WHO about the cot death and vaccines. They had done no such thing and just copy and pasted from whale and vera shreibner
There are claims that are made on here about the GMC trial, again when you read the actually trial transcript nothing of the sort was said and yet again the claims go back to martin walkers blog on whales website which was a work of fantasy.
There are other posters who made claim after claim and never once linked to anything verifiable.

What's with all the 'Ums', SaintlyJimJams.

(It sounds patronising)

Well this is the sort of thing I find fascinating to read. It's far from being any practical use at all atm but how exciting that research is heading in this direction

pediatricbioscience.com/publications/pdf/Pub7.pdf

If you google autism immune system you get loads of recent peer reviewed hits. It's an area that is attracting research funding - and these days it's even recognised that autism is Not One Thing. Wow. Many of the papers in this field are unrelated to the vaccine question (and those that could be generally don't publish that bit - but will happily give you their opinion if you ask them in person).

It's come a long way from ten years ago when I first entered this world. And how exciting for those of us with family histories suggesting the immune system is likely to be involved to find teams working on solving those questions.