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Original poster

visiting gurdwara

293 replies

spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 16:55

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

OP posts:
cwtch4967 · 03/11/2011 21:26

Spiderpig8

I am a practising Christian and in my earlier post I said I would allow my children to visit, cover their hair but now bow. As it appears the "bowing" is just standing quietly and acknowledging that those scriptures are important to those who believe I now think that YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.
You come across as bigoted and spoiling for a fight. I've read some of your other posts and I am speechless at some of the things you have written. I have a son with ASD and learning difficulties and we have just been on a wonderful trip to Legoland where we used exit passes, I just glad that everyone we came into contact with that day were far more gracious than you.
I believe there is one true God but I accept others have a right to believe what they choose. I don't for one second think that this educational visit is something you should be so negative about.
Jesus sad love your God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself.

MenopausalHaze · 03/11/2011 21:29

No use telling OP what Jesus said - it doesn't apply to her!

Grin
firsttimemum77 · 03/11/2011 21:38

OP - great parenting! Teaching your child about tolerance and respect! Wow!
Hmm

firsttimemum77 · 03/11/2011 21:40

Haka - your friend is right! As a Sikh I have always been bought up with those views.

alemci · 03/11/2011 21:57

I think I agree with ctwtch. there is no harm in covering up as you may do when you go into a church or holy place abroad. She doesn't have to bow but just stand quietly and respectfully in a place of worship.

It may be quite an interesting visit. I am a christian and I think it is good to visit other places of worship and show tolerance as long as the favour is returned and we all respect each other's religious views.

Feenie · 03/11/2011 21:59
Shock
vj32 · 03/11/2011 22:02

Sikhism is really interesting. (The religion I have most empathy with, despite not being religious.) It was founded on ideas of equality and tolerance, and the idea that there are many routes to God, and people can all go their own way. Sikh religious texts include writing from people who thought of themselves as Hindus and Muslims.

Anyway, I have been on a school trip to a Gurdwara and the boy who got the most out of it was a Muslim. He was the star, asked loads of questions, re-explained things to other pupils, and was much more self confident than usually. He nearly didn't go at all and his parents had to be persuaded to let him go. But that day that boy, who was low ability, really shined. He understood faith, which helped him understand better than the non-religious children. They did learn a lot, but they were mostly still struggling to understand why people would believe in something that wasn't 'true.' In my experience children who are religious have more understanding of other religions, especially at a young age. They know what questions to ask. Don't deprive your daughter of a chance to learn, unless you believe that actions are more important than beliefs and that she cannot show respect in another place of worship. But if you cannot do that, I strongly suggest you put her into a faith school, otherwise you will meet similar problems again and again.

Civliz · 03/11/2011 22:05

"good to visit other places of worship and show tolerance as long as the favour is returned and we all respect each other's religious views."
But what if the tolerance was not returned why would that affect the way you lead your life? I mean - you'd believe their lack of tolerance and respect to be wrong but would it really cause you to fall to the same level.

FlangelinaBallerina · 03/11/2011 22:06

Worraliberty, I see your point entirely, just disagree totally with it. It's plain wrong to suggest that respect for the religious beliefs of others requires any kind of demonstration of respect for their holy book.

But then I don't really think religious (or any other) faith is deserving of respect as of right anyway. The right to religious faith, absolutely. The people who hold the faith, yes- they're human beings. The faith itself, well that depends entirely on what it is. And I say this as someone who isn't an atheist.

MenopausalHaze, your use of the word chavvy on page 5 is pretty vile. You think OP is being religiously intolerant- I really hope you don't reckon that such behaviour is limited to that particular social group. I've known some very well heeled closed minded people.

GothAnneGeddes · 03/11/2011 22:08

Troll, trolly, trolly troll.

Just in case someone hasn't said it already.

Well done for adding the unusual elements of being a Chrisitan visiting a gurdwara. Usually, it's an atheist visiting a mosque.

alemci · 03/11/2011 22:09

no probably not but do you see where I am coming from. it has to cut both ways IMO particularly when this is traditionally a christian country but I will stop there.

Feenie · 03/11/2011 22:10

Why? You didn't last time Hmm

Civliz · 03/11/2011 22:12

"I do not think there is any other god other than my own, just as those of another religion believe theirs to be the only true way" - Sikhs do not believe that their religion is the only way. They believe your religion is the best way for you to reach God and their religion is the best way for them.

"I would emphasise that for sikhs it is important, and thought I dont think it is a holy book, it is still special to sikhs, and therefore we should respect that."

Poshme Why wouldn't you just say the Bible is our Holy book and the Sikhs have their Holy Book - I don't understand why you feel the need to say to your child I don't think their book is holy - it just sounds so bitchy, petty and unnecessary.

And my mother wonders why I became atheist - no bloody wonder.

Civliz · 03/11/2011 22:16

Why does it have to cut both ways - is that something you think Jesus would say - I'm not religious but I would be seriously shocked if it was. What happened to turning the other cheek?

cwtch4967 · 03/11/2011 22:24

The way I see it the way you behave towards others should absolutely not be conditional.

Civliz · 03/11/2011 22:40

I don't suppose Jesus really cares which country you live in....I expect that's a personal gripe expressed via using religion as an excuse which makes you feel it's more acceptable to demand that your turf is protected although I'm sure Jesus would tell you that it matters not!

You know I would have made a great Jesus follower - I like Jesus, I see him as an all round good guy - it's the Churches and the people who follow him I have the issues with - the fact that they don't seem to pay a blind bit of notice to his approach - how long did it take St Pauls to stand up against the City of London - oh the shame!

MillyR · 03/11/2011 22:54

I don't know how I feel about this.

It is all very well people saying that they believe the gods of all the religions are all the same God, but not all religious people do believe that.

Some people will believe, as part of their particular denomination that other faiths or denominations are false, misleading or even immoral. They presumably consider it immoral to in any way participate, even in the smallest way, with those religions.

Are posters saying that people who belong to such denominations have to participate in things that they consider morally wrong?

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 23:08

Feeny when are you going to read my posts as they are written woman, and misquoting me in a defamatory way
.I have never ever ever said i disagree with disabled people having exit passes.Just that the passes should be timed.
That is not disablist and I would like an apolgy from you for that revolting slur.

Finally the children were told by the school that they would have to bow.Not stand in silence, bow.
Now maybe that isn't true but the school have got that information from somewhere and disseminated that information to children and parents.I am just going by what the school said.

OP posts:
Haka · 03/11/2011 23:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dieforrestdie · 04/11/2011 00:13

Shock horror OP - RE in schools get it wrong sometimes. I was once told that all Sikhs don't eat meat (spot the girl with a ham sandwich and a turban wearing dad)
The school got it wrong - no need to make a bloody song and dance about it. Just tell your DDs (you still haven't said how old) that if they feel uncomfortable bowing then they are perfectly 'allowed' just to pause/stand in front of GGS. No sikh in their right mind would have any problem with it at all.

HoneyandHaycorns · 04/11/2011 00:36

OP, I cannot for the life of me think why you would have a problem with your DCs covering their heads. I don't know why this wasn't required of your DH when he visited, but fwiw I have never seen any visitors to a gurdwara without some form of head covering - male/female, old/young, sikh or non-Sikh. It is a basic gesture of respect for the beliefs and customs of your hosts, and ss such, I cannot comprehend why there might be a problem with this.

As for the bowing, your DCs would not be asked to participate in any religious rituals. Sikh people don't bow to the GGS, they get down on their hands and knees and touch their heads to the floor. Typically, they would make a donation too, of money or food, to contribute towards the communal meals provided by the gurdwara to anyone who wishes to share in it. Your DCs would not be asked to do what Sikh people do, but merely to acknowledge the importance of the book to believers - as others have said, a nod of the head would do, or even just standing still for a moment. Is that so unreasonable?

I am not a Sikh but I'm married to one, and from the outside looking in, I find it a wonderfully wise and tolerant faith. Sikhs are very respectful and accepting of other religions, and they would not want your daughter to be uncomfortable at all. Unlike many other faiths, sikhs are not expected to convert others to their way of thinking. What a pity that you are not open-minded enough to welcome this opportunity for your daughter to learn about another faith. I rather pity anyone whose faith is so shallow that it can be threatened by such things.

rosie74 · 04/11/2011 00:53

Quote from Happycamel:You wouldn't find them forcing a Muslim child to join in. It's only Christians that are supposed to be doormats.

I don't think it's fair to target particular religion.I respect all faiths and would explain that the covering of head and bowing would in no way be detrimental to ones belief.

Morloth · 04/11/2011 01:50

It is fine to ask people to cover their heads and bow.

It is also fine to decide not to go places that require this if you don't want to.

I won't cover up or bow to any books so I don't go places where it is required.

All I need to know about all of the religions is that people should do whatever floats their boat and as long as nobody wants me to do it everything will be hunky dory.

OP just remove your DD from class if you feel that strongly about it. If it was me I would ask DS what he wanted to do, either go along and follow the rules or give it a miss.

Feenie · 04/11/2011 07:11

I haven't quoted you, spiderpig8 - so I can't possibly misquote you.

However, if it makes you happier, I can post the full thread here and people can judge for themselves.

Of course, as more than one poster pointed out, tyou already had form, since that was hot on the heels of another horrible thread, which you started - it was so nasty that it was deleted, so I can't let people judge for themselves; MNHQ pulled it and judged for us. Some people may remember that it was about a visit to the cinema where you were instrumental in ensuring that an ASD child and his family were thrown out.

And now this. Either you do actually have a massive lack of empathy and tolerance, or you obviously just enjoy posting threads which will offend a maximum amount of people. Or maybe both. Either way, perhaps you should look carefully at the collective nature of your posts and what they may say about you - rather than demanding an apology from someone who highlights this.

HoneyandHaycorns · 04/11/2011 07:44

Shock at the attitudes towards disability.

OP, I have a lot of respect for the teachings of Christianity. Given that you identify yourself as a Christian, it seems a shame that you apparently practise so few of them.

I hope that your DCs have plenty of other influences in their lives, as it would be a pity if they adopted the same narrow-minded perspective on the world. :(