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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

visiting gurdwara

293 replies

spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 16:55

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

OP posts:

VirgoGrr · 06/11/2011 00:12

The OP is clearly a bit odd and just looking to be offended.

As a Christian, I've visited Mosques and have always done as visitors are expected to as a sign of respect. I've removed shoes, covered my hair and my clothes. I didn't pray, obviously, because I'm not Muslim, but I was respectful and have 'nodded' as a mark of respect to religious shrines. None of that was an indication that I'd converted, it was just to indicate that I respected that which others regard as holy. I think it would be interesting to have the opportunity to visit other faiths' holy places as this didn't happen when I was at school.

I find it very sad that others have actually done some research on behalf of the OP and it doesn't seem to have done anything to educate her. Very intolerant and a shame that she will be passing this on to her children.

cory · 06/11/2011 01:02

As a Christian I would expect any Muslim/Jewish/Sikh children who visited my church to behave respectfully, to keep their voices down, to not step beyond the altar ring etc. If it was a Christian church where women are still expected to cover their hair (not unusual in some parts of the world) I would expect them to respect that. Of course I understand that they think that my religion is wrong and misguided- that is only natural- but I would still expect them to show some manners.

SuchProspects · 06/11/2011 10:49

I think it is more intolerant to expect people to participate in particular rituals or conform to particular behaviours that do not impact on others (such as bowing or covering, rather than shouting or running about). Personal freedom to do things also means personal freedom to not do things.

TheRealTillyMinto · 06/11/2011 10:58

OP turning your argument on its head, do you think anyone should go to a place held important by anyone else & be disrespectful?

YABU.

oh & that bloke who burns poppies on Rememberance Sundays needs more than a £50 fine.

teacherwith2kids · 06/11/2011 11:04

"particular behaviours that do not impact on others"

Does it not have an impact on others when you deliberately choose to flout a 'norm' for a particular community? If you deliberately choose to show bad manners by e.g. not covering your head in a place where it is the norm to cover your head, does the offence that causes not count as an impact??

teacherwith2kids · 06/11/2011 11:08

The real tilly minto - I am rather hoping that a school group comes to the OP's church, takes the cross off the altar and uses the altar as a colouring desk... but then, she would regard 'respecting the altar' as 'normal and expected' whereas 'covering your hair with a scarf' is an outrageous and corrupting sacreligious practice that might cause her children to convert to another faith...

alemci · 06/11/2011 11:43

she may not come from a demonination that has an altar or cross to pick up. i think you are right that is important in any religious building to be respectful.

We took a group of students to St Albans when they were in Y7/8 and they all behaved really well. It was a very sucessful visit.

Feenie · 06/11/2011 11:45

We?? Please don't tell me you are a teacher, alemci?

alemci · 06/11/2011 11:49

why Feenie would that be so awful :)

Feenie · 06/11/2011 11:54

Given your outrageously prejudiced views on another recent thread, I am absolutely horrified

giveitago · 06/11/2011 12:01

Not sure if OP is for real. Perhaps she was pissed as her posts were pretty provoctive but thankfully noone really rose to it.

alemci · 06/11/2011 12:01

Feenie that is in your opinion. remember this a forum, you haven't met me face to face so shall we just leave it at that. I think we will have to agree to differ.

Feenie · 06/11/2011 12:07

It isn't just my opinion - one of your comments was so racist it was deleted.

I am pissed off enough that I have to share a forum with so many bigots - but you are actually in a position where you can share your views with children?

Feenie · 06/11/2011 12:08

She has form for posting stuff like this, giveitago.

alemci · 06/11/2011 12:27

Feenie yes my post was deleted. You seem to be judge and jury on mumsnet. you are not adding anything to this discussion just commenting on other people and what they post.

I don't think people are bigots just because they have a different opinion to you. Why can't you just let people express their views.

I admit that maybe my post wasn't tactful but that particular issue of us having to change our culture for other faiths etc does irritate me greatly and that was the nature of the discussion.

could we not draw a line under it and move on. You are not going to change what I think and I cannot change your viewpoint but as I said before it is a debating board.

Feenie · 06/11/2011 12:37

as I said before it is a debating board.

And as such, I am therefore allowed to express my alarm that you are could actually share your prejudice with the children that you teach.

I don't think people are bigots because they have a different opinion to mine - I think they are bigots because they exhibit intolerance towards those with a different ethnicity or religion. And yes, that includes you. And it's difficult not to comment on the views you gave on that thread, given that you have a) turned up on another religiously sensitive thread and b) announced that you are a teacher, which puts a whole new (and wholly unpleasant) slant on those views.

teacherwith2kids · 06/11/2011 12:39

Alemci, the reason the OP gave for not wanting her children to enter a gurwara or observe its behavioural norms was that as a Christian, her god was the only true god. Therefore she did not want her children to give any respect to another religion by in any way following their norms or acknowledging that they consider their holy book to be holy.

Lookattheears · 06/11/2011 12:46

I wouldn't be happy.

But then I wouldn't be happy about my kids observing any religion as I think they are all superstitious hocus pocus claptrap anyway.
My children do not pray or sing hymns. And yes, the school has been read the riot act advised of this.

giveitago · 06/11/2011 12:53

Spider you are either being deliberately provocative or your hate just seeps out of you.

You are not respectful.

'I have told the school that they will not be bowing or covering heads .They said a Teaching assistant will wait in the park nearby with them because they can't force kids to stay at home for a reason like this.
They are doing something good in the afternoon so i don't want them to miss the whole trip'

Did you tell they school that all kids won't be bowing or covering their heads? Gosh. They are doing something good in the afternoon as opposed to something bad in the morning?

It's a school trip. Keep your kids at home with you if you don't want them to go. But all this peripheral crap is just you venting your dislike and mistrust of anything out of your world view.

alemci · 06/11/2011 12:58

Feenie I haven't actually said I am teacher. also I think in teaching you keep your personal opinions to yourself. I wouldn't dream of being nasty to anyone I work with of another religion or faith.

I think alarm is a bit extreme.

I haven't said anything unpleasant on this thread and given a balanced view IMO. I understand where the OP is coming from but if you read my earlier posts you will see that I haven't supported that view particularly.

Also why is acceptable for people of other faiths to show intolerance towards this country and christianity (I know they are separate things). e.g. the poppy burner or some hate preacher.

Feenie what do you feel about that or is this perfectly acceptable.

Feenie · 06/11/2011 13:00

Also why is acceptable for people of other faiths to show intolerance towards this country and christianity (I know they are separate things). e.g. the poppy burner or some hate preacher.

What a stupid question - who the hell said it was was acceptable??????????

How is that at all relevant to this thread???

teacherwith2kids · 06/11/2011 13:55

Alemci,

Intolerance to this country and Christianity is as unacceptable as intolerance to people of other faiths living in this country.

OK, it's a bit more complex than that - there are faiths where beating children to drive out the devil is considered acceptable, and there are extreme wings of almost all faiths whose views are unacceptable in to society as a whole.

Should I perhaps qualify and say that tolerance and politeness should be extended to people of all faiths UNLESS their view of faith involves a belief or practice that causes or incites actual harm to others - and that intolerance should be of that specific belief or practice (which may involve only a tiny minority from that faith) rather than of entire faiths.

Therefore we can - and should - be tolerant of and respectful towards Muslims, but be intolerant of the tiny minority of Muslim extremists who become suicide bombers, and the same for other faiths.

seeker · 06/11/2011 14:23

"I admit that maybe my post wasn't tactful but that particular issue of us having to change our culture for other faiths etc does irritate me greatly and that was the nature of the discussion."

How have you had to change your culture for other faiths?

Floggingmolly · 06/11/2011 15:36

Nobody on the whole thread said it as well as MenopausalHaze.

Floggingmolly · 06/11/2011 15:37

Meant to add, Op, you sound a complete fool, sorry to sound personal.

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