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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

visiting gurdwara

293 replies

spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 16:55

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

OP posts:
Dawndonna · 04/11/2011 14:39

No, spider, you do not respect others religions or their rights to belief.
If you did, you would have thought this through, said yes, and this thread would not be here.
As with you, The Sikh religion's holy book is an outward sign of their beliefs, just like a bible. Why can your child not show some respect to the outward signs of their religions? Because you are so caught up in what you believe as being right, you are unable to countenance any other possibility. You spout stuff about respect, but have no idea what it actually means. As I said before, your tolerance levels are nil. I'm sure no religion would want someone with your somewhat rigid belief system as part of it.

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 04/11/2011 14:41

But that doesn't answer my question.i would be really interested if someone could answer question 1 above (if they are able)

OP posts:
Haka · 04/11/2011 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lilymaid · 04/11/2011 14:49

The Archbishop of Canterbury didn't seem to have a problem when he visited a gurdwara.

MillyR · 04/11/2011 14:49

Much as I understand that people feel the OP has a history on MN, and are making their responses accordingly, I do find the tone of this thread peculiar.

I am amazed at the number of people who are making a judgement on this issue based on what Jesus would think. Different religions and different denominations have different ideas about Jesus. I respect Spiderpig's right to believe that her interpretation of Jesus is correct and that her religious beliefs about Sikhism are correct. It doesn't mean I have to respect the actual belief - just her right to hold it and to bring up her children accordingly.

We are, despite the established church, meant to be a secular society. The reason that we manage to have tolerance of religious beliefs is because we are a secular society. As another poster has said, it is rather strange say that all religions are basically the same thing. Okay, Islam and Christianity are pretty similar but Buddhism is very much at odds with them. You cannot hold religious beliefs in anything but the most abstract way without also believing that somebody else is wrong.

And plenty of you are saying exactly that - that the OP has got it wrong about what Jesus and Christianity are - her religious beliefs are wrong and yours are right. That is why only a secular society can protect religious faith. As soon as people come at it from a religious perspective they lose the ability to see that we respect the right to hold the belief (although often not the right to make offensive remarks to others), not the belief itself, which may sometimes be an odious belief.

So OP, YANBU. I respect your right to bring your children up to believe that Christianity is true, Sikhism is not, and that to bow to a religious artefact which is in your mind a falsehood would be wrong.

aftereight · 04/11/2011 14:56

Have you considered the message your actions will give to your child? She may well assume that you have a problem with Sikhism per se. Do you want to appear to be religiously intolerant??

Civliz · 04/11/2011 15:55

Milly R in what way are we a secular society - our Head of State is the Head of the Church of England and can't belong to any other religion. Our Prime Minister must not be Catholic. Our schools are not secular and have a legal requirement to worship in a prodominantly christian way - it feels like Christianity is very much at the forefront of our society.

stepawayfromtheecclescakes · 04/11/2011 16:11

not a very christian attitude to show no respect to another culture / religion. bigoted in my opinion. presumably you are 'making' your children be christians so the 'making' them attend argument is lost on me. There is nothing wrong in seeing first hand how religions / culture other than your own work. after all if you went to a chinese restaraunt you might try out chopsticks, doesnt mean you will eat with them at home every day. YABU it enriches the world for us to have an understanding of others ways of life, they are hardly going to be scarred for life by observing something different fgs.

nailak · 04/11/2011 16:30

do i have a right to burn a bible or a torah if i wanted? as from a muslim perspective that is showing it respect as that is how we are suppossed to dispose of stuff with Quran written on that we dont need, ie old Qurans, calendars etc.

seriously i dont know why you have an issue with wearing a scarf, but not a baseball cap, you are still covering the head, but seem to want to antagonise with a choice of head covering that may seem disrespsctful?

i am sure the kids can go in without their headcovered and noone will really mind, i am sure that just like dh wasnt forced to wear it, neither will they be, but the school wish to teach them respect and understanding of other cultures.

why dont you go with them to see what happens.

Bunbaker · 04/11/2011 16:30

"Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion, because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion."

I am a Christian, but I accept that there is more than one path to God and have no problem with other people choosing different paths. I also accept that not everyone believes in any kind of higher being. How will your children feel about being singled out and not being allowed in to the gurdwara? How will this teach them religious tolerance? When the teacher continues with the topic in class how will your children be able to contribute?

To use a phrase that is vastly overused on here - I think you are massively overthinking this.

I am very disappointed that your views do Christianity a great disservice.

nailak · 04/11/2011 16:31

btw many muslims, go to mosque with their heads uncovered, and noone expects nonmuslims to cover their heads in a mosque, but some people do put on a scarf as a sign of respect.

madhairday · 04/11/2011 16:51

Can't see any problem with covering the head at all. The bowing thing is most likely more of a nod of respect, showing that you respect that Sikhs set great value by their holy book. I don't think the children are being asked to join in a Sikh ritual, but do see the point that if they really were this would be a problem (and would be for me)

In general though I am happy for my dc to visit other places of worship and enjoy the discussions we have about them.

Unfortunately OP I also came across your attitudes on the theme park thread and feel somewhat uncomfortable with your assertions here.

MrBloomsNursery · 04/11/2011 16:55

TBH, I wouldn't care about the clothes side of things, but bowing down to a book is pushing it a bit far isn't it? If it's the ritual though, then I guess there's nothing wrong with it.

I had to learn the Lords prayer and learn psalms and hymns and then go and sing them in the the Church next door. My Mum (strict muslim) never minded these things. But I do think bowing down to something is bit OTT, especially when you don't believe in it.

babybythesea · 04/11/2011 16:59

It depends why you bow though, MrBloom.

Here, bowing (or a nod of the head, or a pause) is done to demonstrate that you understand that this is a holy text and to show it some respect. It is not done to indicate that you believe it or are subserviant to it.

You pause, or nod or whatever in front of a war memorial. It doesn't show you obey anything but to show respect to those it represents. Same thing.

HoneyandHaycorns · 04/11/2011 17:25

OP, please can you clarify why a baseball cap would be ok but a scarf would not?

MillyR · 04/11/2011 19:00

Civliz, we are a secular society in the sense that our legal system and the House of Commons are democratic and are largely not based on religious laws. So if we are looking at issues like discrimination our legal system is based on the Equality Act, European Law and International Human Rights. It is not based on the laws of Leviticus, Sharia law or similar.

MenopausalHaze · 04/11/2011 19:31

So often it's the Christians who give Christianity a bad name. Such a shame.

FlangelinaBallerina · 04/11/2011 22:01

Wise words, MillyR. I can see now that OP hasn't presented herself particularly sympathetically in previous threads, but she has a point here. The number of people who seem to be confusing the need to respect the right to faith with respect for the faith itself is astonishing. As is some of the fucking drivel written about Christianity, and religious belief in general.

seeker · 05/11/2011 11:01

I am an atheist pacifist but I would still bow my head at a war memorial if the people around me did. It's called civilized appropriate behaviour and good manners.

alemci · 05/11/2011 11:08

so would I seeker but perhaps the original poster did not want her daughter/son to have to bow down to an unknown power/deity. She seemed to imply that this had to be done and the child could not just stand still but possibly that is not the case.

Some christians will not participate in yoga because of the chanting and meditation which goes with it.

This could also apply in a church. some parents may not want their children to kneel at the altar or pray. I very much doubt if they would be expected to but I am not sure of the protocol on visits.

seeker · 05/11/2011 11:53

"Some christians will not participate in yoga because of the chanting and meditation which goes with it."

That's because, as Brian Cox would say, is because they aren't very good at thinking.

FlangelinaBallerina · 05/11/2011 13:38

Seeker, bowing your head at a cenotaph is not an act of worship. Also, I had always understood cenotaphs to be in memorial of all war victims, including non combatants. Is that not ok for a pacifist?

seeker · 05/11/2011 14:03

Bowing your head to someone else's holy things isn't an act of worship either.

seeker · 05/11/2011 14:15

And I am constantly being told that it it fine for there to be compulsory Christian worship in state schools and a bit of praying will do my children no harm. How come my children being asked to pray is fine and a child of Christian parents being asked to respectfully bow their head to someone else's holy things isn't?

giveitago · 05/11/2011 14:51

Oh - if you really find it hard then don't have your kids go. End of.

I went to a wedding at temple and I found it very hard keeping my headscarf on and for ds (who was 3 at the time) it was harder. But we did it.

I often end up going to catholic churches and I cover my shoulders. Don't like it but it's what it's expected. I'd rather wear extra clothes than be told I have to wear few clothes.

I know lots of christians who are happy to chant during their yoga classes. Doesn't seem to upset them.

But if you really feel it's going to cross your line then get your kid excused from the visit. But then I do think that when you go abroad, many of the interesting sites are religious ones and what are you going to do then?