visiting gurdwara

[spiderpig8]

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

Ah, so inter-religious communication comes down to a battle or confrontation, does it, HappyCamel? Whether you are a 'doormat'?

The whole tolerance things seems doomed, really.

Can you imagine the fuss on here if kids visited a church and were forced to get down on their knees and pray (or else they couldn't come into the church)?

I think it is an unreasonable demand and not tolerant of YOUR beliefs.

Having said that, I am a Christian and I would allow my child to do this in the gurdwara. I would explain that such an outward action doesn't really matter at all. God looks at the heart, and if your child is not worshipping something else in their heart, then I think it doesn't matter whatsoever, it is just 'being polite'. I think being pernickety about this can actually be a bit damaging to the gospeal as it makes Christianity seem like a religion of forms and outward appearance, which it really isn't.

As for respect, its not remotely respectful to ask children or their parents to do something which goes against their conscience. Surely the most important thing which RE can teach is that faith does really matter to a lot of people. I would never expect a child from an atheist or Sikh background to cross themselves or kneel or whatever when visiting my church.

THe thing that would piss me off more than anything is that the school are wasting resources, time and money on such a pointless trip.

Why dont they take the children to a museum, nature reserve, olympic stadium, etc.

Far more educational, it would be fun (isnt that the point of school trips), an exciting day out. Just how exciting is it to have to be silent, wear a hat and bow to some unknown force.

But MerriMarigold, that is not a prerequisite for entering a church! No one is forced to get on thier knees and prey.

I would however, expect visiting children of other faiths to respect the items on the alter that are not for fiddling with, even though they are just objects and hold no sacred worth for visiting children of other faiths or none.

I wonder if a baseball cap would be a compromise

Honestly, this has to be a wind up, no?

Seriously no-one is this dim?

OK, OP, you consider yourself to be a christian, then how can you justify disallowing your daughter to understand the religions of others and how others choose to worship?

So as a religious person, you refuse to let them participate in seeing a religious place, because they will have to cover their hair? So doing, also wasting the time of a TA who has to supervise them in the enforced objection and snubbing of the school trip, because there is something GOOD on in the afternoon GOOD not being the faith based activity, clearly ..and you consider yourself religious???

I'd give you more credence if you were an athiest tbh, that you objected all religion, but to here spouting piousness and right and true, and NOT allow your daughter to see how other religions choose to worship god is incredible.

You seriously don't know that women are treated differently in the name of religion? in 2011?

I am appalled.

Oh come off it? You don't respect their religion? Respect?? Strange choice of bigotted words there OP. And no, a baseball cap would be inappropriate. Would you allow your child to wear that in your own place of worship? No, beacuse, as you so clearly understand, it would be disrespectful. Ye gods.

I see no problem with covering hair, but I am a bit at the idea of them having to bow to a book. I wouldn't want to be obligated to give offerings to an idol in a Hindu temple or pay my respects to the Bible in a Christian church etc, so why do it in a gurdwara?

I imagine a baseball cap will be fine.

But I do agree with Trifle - primary schools spend a lot of time visiting religious places. DC has visited more mosques, temples and gurdwara than theatres, with school.

Covering the head really wouldn't be a problem to me (and I'm as Christian as they come ) but I don't think I'd be happy with the bowing.

I think the comparison for me would be that I wouldn't expect to be asked to cross myself in a Catholic (or Orthodox) church even though that's the practice of the believers there. I suspect that the school is trying to give the pupils an experience of what it means to belong to that faith rather than just learning about the faith (IYSWIM) and perhaps this is what you are objecting to?

See, trifle, this is where I disagree.
'I dont call it respect, I call it shoving your beliefs on others'

Normally, you would have a choice about whether or not you entered the place of worship. Admittedly, things are a little different on a school trip, but still. By allowing people in to see how they do something, they are hardly forcing beliefs on anyone. What they are saying is 'Look, if you do want to come and have a nose around to see what goes on here please could you follow our customs'. I think the rabbi was being very accomodating - essentially saying 'It is more important to me that your child tries to develop an understanding of a different world view than that he wears a hat.' Fair play to him, because you were not big enough to turn it round and say 'It is more important that my child understands that people don't always see thigns our way than that he has to wear a hat to do it'.

I think dismissing it all as 'mumbo jumbo' is just as dangerous as being forced to mindlessly follow a religion. It all leads to a complete inability to understand one another,and this is precisely why wars are started. It's not the religion itself, it is a complete lack of understanding or empathy for what anyone else has to say. Let the kids go in and hear some of what each religion is about. As long as they get a number of differing viewpoints, they will in the future be able to have rational, fact based opinions as to why a particular religion is the way it is.

If you don't like it, stopping kids from going on a trip allows bigotry to persist - you don't get the chance to see that someone who does things differently can still be a decent person. Which is precisely why I cannot abide religion in any shape or form.....

(Just to put the cat among the pigeons, it is not so very different to saying to other children 'My house, My rules. You may not do this at home, but this is how things are done here!!')

FGS why not just let them go and cover their heads as a mark of respect for other peoples religions. You are teaching your children tolerance and respect rather than advocating another religion above Christianity.

Why let them miss out?

If your daughter, or you on your daughter's behalf, don't wish to show subservience to the Sikh holy book by bowing your head in front of it (if that's what you think would be happening by her doing so), she needn't do it. The religion doesn't require it, and no-one would take offence if she stood/sat at the back of the room while everyone else does this. As long as she doesn't show disrespect, of course, which I'm sure she wouldn't.

Covering one's head in a gurudwara is also done as a mark of respect. However, as with many religions, the line is blurred between culture and religion. Culturally, Sikh people would consider it an affront to deliberately enter the hall bare-headed. I don't think this contravenes the strict letter of the religion (racking my brains here to remember what I learned as a child!), but it would be offensive to the congregation. Not unlike talking over a priest as (s)he preaches, or eating in church. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the Bible prohibiting any of this, it's just rude (some might say to the point of being unholy).

Sikhism is actually pretty open/tolerant: we are not allowed to convert people, we can eat what we like, we are bound to respect all others of all faiths without judgement, the caste system is strictly prohibited and equality of the sexes is required to be practised at all times. Of course, human interpretation often gets in the way, but scripturally, it's a very easy going religion. Even if your daughter were to go to the gurudwara and not do as others are doing, if the congregation or the priest objects, that would be because she would be offending them rather than the religion.

I thought the whole ethic of Christianity was to show respect and kindness neither of which you are showing in this instance. If your child is being brought up Christian you cannot and should not hide them from other forms of religion. I would have thought you would have wanted to instil in your child acceptance of differences( although imo all religions have similar principles)
Tbh this stinks of fear of the unknown to me.

Indieskies, that's what I meant. If it was a pre-requisite to enter, imagine the commotion on here!!!

I'm a Christian and would have no problem with my DD covering her hair but I would have a problem with bowing to the scriptures. Surely that is not necessary? It would be hypocritical.......

"And no, a baseball cap would be inappropriate. Would you allow your child to wear that in your own place of worship?"

I can't speak for the OP, but kids wear whatever they want in my place of worship and no one gives a toss.

"OK, OP, you consider yourself to be a christian, then how can you justify disallowing your daughter to understand the religions of others and how others choose to worship?"

Erm, that isn't what the OP is objecting to. Its about being asked to observe Sikh practises rather than just learn about them. Surely providers of religious education should realise that thats quite an important difference for a lot of religious people.

slubadub, what a great post. I had only the vaguest idea about the tenets of Sikhism and it's so interesting to read an 'insider's' take on head-covering and bowing. What you say about the caste system being prohibited and equality of the sexes being required etc is also fascinating. Thank you.

THe thing that would piss me off more than anything is that the school are wasting resources, time and money on such a pointless trip.

Wow! So learning about other people is a pointless waste? Finding out that different parts of the world (that you may one day visit) have different ideas and customs is a bloody good preparation for life, I'd say.

I personally think YABU but essentially it's your business - although I'd be interested to hear what your DC thinks about it. However, I really think you are being totally U to have to pull a TA out to supervise your kids just because there's stuff you do approve of on in the afternoon.

If it means so much to you, pull your kids out of school for the day and send in a letter saying why. You can't have pudding if you don't eat your main course.

And no, wearing a baseball cap would not be a compromise. With respect, I find that comment deliberately provocative (and I'm not easily riled). I would never dream of wearing a baseball cap to church. It's a matter of respect, not religion.

Gurudwaras provide suitable head-coverings: normally a chiffon scarf for girls, and a handerkerchief for boys. They are open to all, for shelter and food (and trust me, the ones in London get ALL sorts coming in for a hot meal when they need it). They are not allowed to turn anyone away. As such, head coverings are provided.

Maybe school assemblies and carol services in faith schools. And there's plenty of fuss about them on here! (And I agree with the fuss if there is no other choice of school in your area).

Sorry, should have made clear the first line of my last post was a quote, not me!