visiting gurdwara

[spiderpig8]

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

It's Interfaith Week from 20th-26th Nov and representatives from some of the religions in our area have organised a journey starting at the local Anglican Cathedral and visiting the Gurudwara, mosque, Hindu mandir and synagogue.

I'll be covering my head, removing my shoes or whatever else is required, as will the local priest, rabbi, imam and whoever else, of any faith or none decides to join us. I suspect our faiths will bear up .

Well that's good for you suzi, but i don't have to feel the same way do I?

I visited a Gurdwara a few years ago with dd's school. I was really impressed. It goes against the Sikh religion to push their religious views onto anyone or to try and convert anyone. They will not say to a Christian you should try being a Sikh, they will say to a Christian visiting their temple that they should be the best Christian you can be - they believe in one God and that everyone worships that God in their own way.

I don't recall being asked to bow my head to their Holy Book, if I was very low key. The girls wore scarves and the boys wore baseball caps, one child was kept away - what a shame, all the parents and the children thoroughly enjoyed the day and we developed a deeper understanding of another group in our society.

Remove your child from the day, it's your child's loss.

cover your head, take of your shoes don't drink or take other drugs while inside but spiderpig as you seem to not want to hear it (so for the 3rd time) no one would make you bow - ever.
it is a sign of respect but if non sikhs don't feel comfortable doing so then they would never make those do it. just stop by it (that shows respect)

I'm going to ask again cos I REALLY want to know....even though the OP refuses to answer

OP, how old are your DCs?

Is it their decision or yours to sit in the park with the TA rather than follow the gurdwara protocol?

OK, I come from a long proud line of Atheists. I was taught that you observe the traditions of where you are. You don't put your feet toward a holy person, or take off or put on your hat or shoulder covering or the long list of other things you are not allowed to do or have to do.

The reason is that you might not believe in the religion or any religion or in our case you might believe that religion has caused a lot of suffering and war BUT you respect the people who believe in these things. You are respecting and honouring the people and their humanity not books or crosses or idols.

I am leaving this thread now because I don't think you will change your bigoted, hypocritical opinion. Please try to respect others more.

This debate is over really isn't it? If it ever really started that is - because spiderpig is being deliberately stupid and intransigent and has no intention whatever of listening to reason. Her mind, such as it is, is made up and always was. All that remains then is to say this - shame on you OP. Shame on you and pity on the religion of which you claim to be an adherant. You sully it's name.

Hear Hear Mrs Pratchett!

Yes, objecting to exit passes for disabled children is disablist, yes.

As was your OP in your cinema thread, where you described how you were instrumental in ensuring a child with ASD and his family were thrown out.

Bigot - Cambridge dictionary definition:

a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong

Sums you up quite nicely, I'd say.

That is why people are saying you are pig-headed and bigotted.
You have been told what a particular custom represents.
You say 'I choose to create my own interpretation. Now, I choose to be offended by my invented interpretation. And I wish my child not to partake in the visit because I am offended by something I have invented.'

Bowing in this country denotes respect and has connotations of subservience, yes. But the whole point of these discussions of tolerance and understanding is that children, ideally including yours, learn that other cultures and religions have different ideas on what actions mean.

If your dd had not known any of this and had not bowed, no-one would have minded (most people would think 'hey, the child didn't know or forgot - it's what kids do). The school have been asked to ensure however that the kids understand some of the practices and one of those is developing an understanding of how another religion/culture chooses to demonstrate respect. (If it involved children visiting a church, they might be asked not to draw on the bible because it was holy). That respect happens to use a gesture which has a bit of significance here but you have to put that aside and accept that different people have different ways of showing respect. Not allowing your child to learn this in effect says 'Hey, you know what, it's ok for you to be direspectful to a holy text because it's not your holy text, mainly because the way that respect is demonstrated is not my way of showing respect.' I hope that you would be equally tolerant of someone defacing a bible, because it didn't happen to be their holy text.

I am a Christian and would love my kids to visit other places of worship to find out about other religions. I would have no problem with them having to wear appropriate clothing and removing shoes etc.

I would find the bowing more difficult to accept, but babybythesea has, I think, probably explained it best, and in some ways, helped me to accept that it would be fine:
'If what they are saying is 'I understand that to some people, this is a holy text and I acknowledge that'?'
I would hope my children could do that. We would probably chat beforehand that it is different from our holy book, but I would emphasise that for sikhs it is important, and thought I dont think it is a holy book, it is still special to sikhs, and therefore we should respect that.

I organised a school trip to a gurdwara (and a Hindu temple) a little while ago.

The ONLY family to withdraw their child from the trip was an extremely (I nearly said extremist) evangelical Christian ... the only one worried that their child's faith was so shallow it could be affected simply by entering the door of another religion's holy building ... everyone else saw it as a way of learning about a very different culture (the school is virtually all-white, very rural).

Spider, if you allow children to visit a house where someone has different customs (e.g. taking off their shoes) do you say to them 'oh no, you can't do that because it is different from what we do'? No, you don't - you show respect to the people you are visiting by asking your children to follow their customs because it is polite to do so. That is all the gurdwara is asking you to do - to realise that the children are entering a place with slightly different customs which it is polite and courteous to follow. Stopping in front of a holy book because it is holy to the people you are visiting is not going to contaminate your child .. it's just polite and shows an interest in them.

We did not take the child on the trip. It went down as unauthorised absence - as in a parent had taken the choice to withdraw their child from their education for the day, we marked it in the same way as we would if they had taken their child out of maths for a holiday.

as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.

Deary deary me - it is shit like this that starts wars.

Those typos, Sharrie, are you because you're in a menopausal haze!!!!

I thought that being Christian had something to do with tolerance, patience, forgiveness.
Obviously wrong.

Spider, if you believe that Christianity is the only true religion, what do you think about those who follow other faiths?

• That they should be converted to the one true faith by any means necessary?

• That they are mistaken, their view has no validity, so they are not worthy of your respect nor should you try to learn anything about them?

• That they are dangerous and contaminating so you should stay away from them at all costs??

Or perhaps that they are human beings, as you are, and that their faith is important to them (even if you do not follow it yourself) and therefore on a simple level of human decency you should not show open disrespect to things that are important to them. If your Christian faith is so strong, then you have no more to 'fear' from the Sikh holy book or wearing a head covering than you have of taking off your shoes in a friend's house or pausing a moment to admire their new family photograph - they are things that are important to another human being and so you should respect that.

If a predominantly Muslim school chose to visit your church, would you want them to sit on the altar? Take the altar cross and handle it? Open up the box of communion bread and taste it? Use the pew Bibles as shoe-rests? No, you would expect them to follow the customs of your church - which you are probably not even aware of as they seem 'normal' to you, but might be as alien for them as you are finding wearing a head covering and pausing in front of the holy book. We do tend to find out OWN customs 'normal' and not even notice them....

As for places of worship not being educational ..... words fail me. In what way is learning about other cultures, how other people live, what other people believe and find important, the history of other cultures, the arhitecture and art of other cultures and the interesting interplay of influences between our modern, secular world and religions and cultures with long traditions not 'eudcational'?? If you went to a museum and your child was asked to pause in front of a particularly good and interesting picture, would you mock that as 'not educational'???

Teacher- probably the first half of 2.I do however respect people of other faiths and totally respect their right to whatever belief and practices they want and I would actively fight for the religious freedoms of anyone.I am open to learning about their religion.I have never said otherwise
However I do not however personally agree with their beliefs, I do not think there is any other god other than my own, just as those of another religion believe theirs to be the only true way.
I do not however believe that children should be forced to 'bow' to the religious artifacts of other religions.If that makes me a bigot or intolerance , so be it.

Can they stand still in front of those artifacts though?
Because in the gurdwara, it amounts to the same thing. It is an action that says 'I understand that you believe this to be a holy text'.
If standing still is ok, but bowing is not, then you are continuing to wrongly interpret what the bowing signifies, according to your own beliefs (cultural, not religious).

And learning what other people mean by their actions is the crux of this debate. You are refusing to learn that bowing does NOT signify subservience to the text, but respect for the fact that it is a holy book, even if you don't believe it's teachings. (You insisted back upthread that it signified subservience to you).

In effect, you are totally in the camp of teacher's no2 point, not half of it as you claim.
You openly state that people of a different religion are mistaken. Teacher said 'Their views have no validity and you don't have to learn about them' which you refuted.
But in fact, you are refusing to learn what bowing means, and therefore you are not showing them any respect or acknowledging that a viewpoint other than yours might be valid.

It's why I distrust religion and overly religious people. 'Love thy neighbour' .... as long as he is exactly the same as you. Otherwise, feel free to trample over what s/he thinks and believes, while stating that you have 'no objections to it, but.....'

Oh come on - where is the force with this bowing thing? I don't believe for one second that anyone compelled anyone to bow. Invited perhaps. Or explained that this is what sikhs do perhaps - but compelled her to? Nah.

op i agree that i wouldnt bow infront of the guru granth sahib, but u would be in the same room and pause in front of it.

PS No-one is asking you to believe that there is another God than the one you worship. Neither are you being asked to believe what is written in another text than the bible. Just to say 'Hey, that's your holy book and I'll just acknowledge that.'