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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

visiting gurdwara

293 replies

spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 16:55

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

OP posts:
MooMinCow · 03/11/2011 18:24

YABU - covering heads is a sign of respect in the Asian world, as is the Namaste gesture, taking outdoor shoes off when entering home/temple, greeting/respecting elders by bowing/touching feet. If you visit a place of worship you abide their customs, end of. Would you object to doing these also.?

As a Hindu, I was brought up to respect books - my parents would go loopy if I chucked books on the floor/stood on them etc - in their eyes books represent knowledge and wisdom and should be revered. Can't speak for Sikh's but maybe this is part of the significance of bowing to a book?

The baseball hat thing is Downright offensive

OneHandFlapping · 03/11/2011 18:26

Thank God I'm an atheist!

FlangelinaBallerina · 03/11/2011 18:27

Agreed with those who don't think the children should have to bow to a holy book. I wouldn't do that, or expect my child to- it would be different if they actively wanted to. Fuck that. Dress code is one thing, but nope, not a show of respect for a holy book that means nothing to me. Whoever asked about curtseying to the Queen, no I wouldn't do that either. It is not a question of not showing respect for the faith/beliefs of others. That merely requires one to keep quiet when on the believers turf, and not interfere with them getting on with it.

It's a shame though, this trip could be very beneficial for your DD. Children do need to learn about different religions, because whatever their own views, religion is very important to many people in society. It helps to know that. It doesn't matter whether one is an atheist or not- lots of others aren't, so an educated person needs to have an idea about them and what they believe. Religion is a fact of life. However, bowing to a holy book is crossing the line between learning about another faith and participating in the observance of it. Moomincow, I respect books too, but that doesn't require bowing to them!

You would not be remotely unreasonable to tell DD and the school that she isn't to bow unless she wants to. She's hardly likely to be dragged out of there because of it.

coraltoes · 03/11/2011 18:31

I went to a convent catholic school...I know...shocking. You know what, i remember being taunt to respect EVERYONE, regardless of faith, colour, beliefs, crimes whatever. I learned all about other religions and we even had a Passover meal. Why? To UNDERSTAND those we share our homes, schools, buses, workplaces, with. To learn not tolerance but acceptance. To realize there is more ways of viewing the world than just our own.

eating a matzo didn't make me any less catholic. It didn't denigrate my views on my own religion nor make me ay less Christian. I'd love to know which fanatical branch of Christianity has taught you to not respect other religions!

I have since travelled the world, visiting temples, mosques etc and ALWAYS adhered to any dress code so as not to offend. It is basic manners. A fucking baseball cap is for the park, not a place of spiritual worship.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 03/11/2011 18:31

The bold bit on the extract worra posted really does sum it up. They are not asking the children to take part in some kind of religious activity - they are being asked to be dignified.

Methe · 03/11/2011 18:31

It's just a learning exercise isn't it?

I would be proud to have children capable of showing respect to other peoples religions. I'm glad the schools promote it.

My DD went to a gurdwara last year. She went and enjoyed it but hasn't become sikh as far as I am aware, or muslim even though he best friend is and although I believe in God she has never indicated that she does.

You have no right to tell their children what they 'believe' your job as a parent is to allow them to discover that for themselves though their experiences.

Religion isn't catching. Sadly, neither is respect.

worraliberty · 03/11/2011 18:32

You would not be remotely unreasonable to tell DD and the school that she isn't to bow unless she wants to. She's hardly likely to be dragged out of there because of it.

Yes

The staff are taught about protocol and if a child isn't going to adhere to it, they shouldn't enter should they?

Just say a condition of entering your house was to remove shoes. How would you feel if someone agreed to visit you knowing that...and then refused to do it when they got there?

Pretty rude really isn't it?

gardenpixies32 · 03/11/2011 18:35

Pig and Triffle, what a shame parents like you exist in our society.

Taking children to partake and learn about another religion is a fantastic opportunity. I organised plenty of school trips to Gurdwaras, Mosques, Temples, Churches and the kids loved it. I taught in a secondary boys school with 1800 children in London and not one parent or one of the boys had your shitty attitudes!

Pig, you can hardly call yourself a Christian. Hopefully your poor children wont be bigoted fools like the two of you.

FrightNight · 03/11/2011 18:36

Cripes such prospects I must have been not listening at all in church all this time.

maybe the next school trip should be to the Church so's the kids can learn how to be disrespectful and intolerant of others Wink

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 18:39

I still want to know why a middle aged man, there in a professional capacity,was not offered headgear and asked to bow ,et young (mpressionable) children are forced to confirm .
Funny that

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 03/11/2011 18:40

And I still want to know why it is OK for non-Christian children to have worship in schools. But, you won't answer that, will you?

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 18:41

worraliberty the difference is they have a choice to visit, kids don't.
I think if the sikhs had respect they would not want a christian or any one who didn't believe, do anything that made them uncomfortable.

OP posts:
worraliberty · 03/11/2011 18:42

I still want to know why a middle aged man, there in a professional capacity,was not offered headgear and asked to bow ,et young (mpressionable) children are forced to confirm

And that's exactly what your children would find out if they went along...or you'd find out if you offered to help out on the outing.

There are many things we don't understand about other religions and I'm really pleased my children get to find them out...then they can tell me all about it and we're all educated.

coraltoes · 03/11/2011 18:43

Mrs Terry I am not certain but are all state schools not made to follow the religion of the state? I went to a faith school so am not sure.

worraliberty · 03/11/2011 18:44

Of course the kids have a choice to visit....yours are choosing to sit in a park with a TA are they not?

Or have you taken away their choice and made it for them OP?

nailak · 03/11/2011 18:44

is it the same gudwara that your dh went to and your dd is going to?
has the management commitee or rules of the gudwara been changed following your dhs visit?
some people may have complained or found it disrespectful that visitors werent covering heads so they changed the policy?

redvelvetcake · 03/11/2011 18:45

YABU. When I went to school we visited all places of worship.

I wasn't Christian but i still attended Christmas mass, sung carols and hymns. When I went to church I had wafers an drunk from a chalice. Did it make me Christian? No. Were my parents worried that I went against my own beliefs? No.

As a child I found it fascinating and I learnt about so many religions this way.

Going to other places of worship and being respectful is part of learning. There's no harm in being tolerant and teaching children that.

IndieSkies · 03/11/2011 18:46

So, Spiderpig, you have decided that Sikhs have 'no respect'?

Seeker makes a v v good point.

LittleMissFlustered · 03/11/2011 18:46

I'd be downright thrilled if a trip like this was organised for my kids. They're open minded souls who like to learn, and learning about their classmates religions enables them to foster greater understanding and tolerance. It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

I'm quite stunned at the close-mindedness displayed by some people on this thread, and am desperately hoping that they're a minority.

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 18:47

All parents have the right to remove their child from all religious acticvities.No child is forced to pray against their parents wishes.

OP posts:
worraliberty · 03/11/2011 18:48

Here's a picture gallery of a school visit (random school found on Google)

It looks like a pleasant enough trip to me. I know all 3 of my kids enjoyed their trips when they went Smile

www.galleycommonschool.ik.org/gallery/28825103123.ikml

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/11/2011 18:48

coraltoes State schools are made to have an act of Christian adherence. This is a Christian State. However, I don't have to pray when I call 999 and I don't have to sing carols when I go to hospital. Why do my children have to have any Christian content when they are being educated.

BTW, I cover my head, bow, don't turn my back, all that jazz, dependent on where I am because it would be mean and churlish not to.

FlangelinaBallerina · 03/11/2011 18:49

Worraliberty, you talk about religious observance like it's equivalent to dress code. I explicitly distinguished the two in my post though- no problem with dress codes. Also, most places of worship (and certainly Sikh temples) are public in that they are meant to welcome anyone, rather than private like your home. So your example is not the same thing, at all. I'm sorry, but bowing to a holy book goes beyond respecting other people's beliefs. Respecting the beliefs of others would simply involve not stopping them from doing it, and not being critical of it in their place of worship, home or anywhere else that's their turf. If OP's DD watches her mouth, and does not try and get in the way of anyone else's religious observance, she will be showing all the politeness and respect for belief that could reasonably be required of her.

It is a great shame that OP's DD might miss out on a useful educational experience because religious observance is a prerequisite of the visit. It won't be DD or OP's fault, though.

Also, if you, a TA or a religious minister dragged a DC of mine anywhere, for any reason other than removing them from immediate harm or preventing them from seriously harming someone else, I'd break your fucking nose. This isn't an unusual sentiment from parents, so with that in mind I don't think OP's DD is going to be physically removed from anywhere.

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 18:50

No I haven't i believe sikhs to be a very rerspectful and tolerant lot, I truly think the school are enforcing the bowing and scarf business to make themselves look good, whereas the sikhs I think would not want the children to do anything that sat uncomfortably with them.I might see about emailing the gurdwara direct and see what their take on it is.

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 03/11/2011 18:50

Yes SpiderPig but I remember me and my Jewish friend having to leave the hall when prayers/songs started. Being in the park with a TA pales into nothing as opposed to filing out of a packed hall while hundreds of other children watch you. Thanks goodness I had a Jewish friend and she had me, otherwise we would have been leaving all alone.