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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

visiting gurdwara

293 replies

spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 16:55

MY DDS school is visiting a gurdwara and they have been told they have to wear a scarf and bow to their religious book.
Whilst I respect other peoples right to take part in whatever religion they like, I do not respect their religion , because as a Christian I believe christianity is the only true religion.
I feel that wearing a headscarf and bowing to a book crosses the line from educational into observing some of their religious beliefs.
DH has been into Muslim, sikh and hindu temples in the courses of his work and never been asked to cover his hair, so it can't be an 'absolute' rule.

OP posts:
worraliberty · 03/11/2011 17:39

It's not a waste of resources or a pointless trip.

It's just the opposite infact

With so much diversity and inclusion in this country, it's very important indeed that people get to learn all about other people's religions.

Children love visual learning so these trips are normally a lot of fun.

It's mostly the parents who make it a problem...and even that's often born out of ignorance. If they, themselves had experienced trips like this, perhaps it would be easier on the kids.

slubadub · 03/11/2011 17:39

D'oh - handkerchief!

IndieSkies · 03/11/2011 17:41

But there would be a fuss because NO-ONE is forced to get on their knees and pray in a church, not even christians.

However I would expect a visiting child not to fill their water bottle from the font, respecting the fact that for the Christians present, it is holy water. Because that is something that would ACTUALLY be held dear in a Christian church. And I very uch doubt there would be an outcry about a visiting child being expected to respect that.

BarryKent · 03/11/2011 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 17:47

I wasn't being provocative about the cap. Hats are worn in church! Have you never been to a wedding!The Brownies wear baseball type hats in church too.In any case the church doesn't require hair covering.
I am still struggling to understand why a 40 yr old surveyors hair is not offensive but a young childs is

OP posts:
LadyClariceCannockMonty · 03/11/2011 17:52

OP, I don't know about Sikhism specifically but often women are required to cover their hair but not men.

grovel · 03/11/2011 17:52

spiderpig, your call.

But I think you are depriving your kids (and a TA) of an educational experience because of a principle which I suspect they don't give a stuff about. If they do, it'll be because you told them to, I suspect.

Original poster
spiderpig8 · 03/11/2011 17:55

I have just looked on a sikh website and covering of hair is a sign' ... you are declaring that you are committed and have dedicated the self to the Guru '

OP posts:
AVoidkaTheKillerZombies · 03/11/2011 17:55

Some people love to find things to whinge about.
Get a grip, or a life, or both.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/11/2011 18:01

OP, how do you feel about compulsory Christian worship in schools? Or whatever twaddly words people use to cover up children being forced to have your religion shoved down their throats. That's actually forced as part of the school experience and, in my opinion, utterly dreadful.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 03/11/2011 18:03

OP, if you think a religion is such tosh then it won't mean anything if your ds bows to their book, will it?

Are you worried your son might catch Sikhism?

BarryKent · 03/11/2011 18:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AFuckingKnackeredWoman · 03/11/2011 18:05

The bible doesn't teach respect and tolerance anymore then?

I hope your children grow up alot less narrow-minded then their mother is

soandsosmummy · 03/11/2011 18:06

I think YABU. They are visiting a place of worship. While there the very least they should do is respect the most basic rules of that place In my last job I often visited places of worship and always tried to show respect Covering your head is not difficult or degrading but simply what is done in that place.

I think you are depriving your child of a great experience - I love going into Gudwaras they are welcoming, friendly and also absolutely beautiful. Please rethink. The school is not asking your child to believe something else but merely to learn about and respect what others believe.

As for saying muslims wont get involved - in our city the sikhs and muslims took it in turns to protect each others places of worship during the riots so those of the other faith could worship in peace. Surely that is a great example of faiths respecting each other.

babybythesea · 03/11/2011 18:06

I suspect if you searched hard enough you'd find wearing clothes in church is a sign that you respect God - most customs seem to have origins in a religious belief (in fact, weren't Adam and Eve naked until they fell from grace?). So you could argue, if you wanted to, that the fact I wear clothes is a symbol of my acknowledgement that I am a sinner.
I don't have anything to do with religion, and don't think I am (a sinner that is). I'm not about to go naked to prove otherwise though!
I wear clothes because others would run screaming at the sight of me if I didn't (and I feel the cold!). There could probably be a religious slant taken on it, but I choose to wear stuff out of respect for everyone around me and any delicate nerves that may be in the vicinity.

When you go into someone else's place of worship, follow a custom from respect - it doesn't cause you harm to do so. If you don't agree with it, then have a quiet chat to your daughter - explain your beliefs and where they conflict. Maybe bowing to the book is a step too far but following a dress code is something you have to do in a great many countries including our own (look at the number of 'shirts on in here' cafes). Does no harm to learn that while you may disagree with it, there are things you can make concessions on in the name of tolerance, and learning about and having respect for others.

SauvignonBlanche · 03/11/2011 18:08

YABU and offensive.
Displaying respect for someone else's faith does not lessen your own.

FrightNight · 03/11/2011 18:10

Isn't one of the basic tenets of Christianity tolerance and respect of others.

I reckon you've seen an opportunity to be provocative and have grabbed it with both hands.

I'm certain you've won Parent of the Week in the staff room (not a good award you understand).

What happens btw if DD were to want to marry a Non-christian?

QuickLookBusy · 03/11/2011 18:13

If they were visiting the theatre they would be asked to keep quiet during the play

If they were visiting a farm they would be told to wear appropriate clothes and keep quiet around the animals

If they were visiting a victorian school they would be asked to wear victorian clothes, packed lunch in a paper bag, use chalk and a blackboard etc etc

If they were visiting a guadwara they would be asked to cover their head.

It's all about respect, learning about other environments and how to fit in with the world.

SuchProspects · 03/11/2011 18:14

Assuming your DCs are young YANBU. Asking children to observe different customs and practices is not asking them to respect them, it's asking them to conform to them.

The TA isn't being wasted staying in the park (Hmm ? what are they going to do if it's raining?) with your DCs. That's one of the (many) things that having TAs around is good for. Your children should not miss out on their education because the school has arranged a religious experience in the morning that is at odds with your conscience.

I would be very sceptical of allowing my DCs to participate in religious practices in the name of being educated about them. I think it is a disrespectful way to teach young people in a non-voluntary environment about faith and culture. It leans to close to proselytizing.

SuchProspects · 03/11/2011 18:16

^Isn't one of the basic tenets of Christianity tolerance and respect of others.
^
No. It really isn't.

nailak · 03/11/2011 18:20

i would let my dcs go but wouldnt want them bowing.

even in secondary school we visited temples/cathedrals/synagogues, it is interesting and prevents people guessing what other peoples beliefs and customs are, the way you are doing here, instead we could just ask the insiders.

My sister is sikh and i often went with her to gudwara as a teenager, and she would keep a spare scarf in her car for me and her and we would put them on when we went inside, we would eat and take food for her invalid mum in a tupperware.

worraliberty · 03/11/2011 18:22

Well here's a visitors guide to a Gurdwara taken from Google....

Visitors Guide

Before entering the main congregational hall (at Level 2) called Darbar Sahib, visitors are expected to show their respect by observing the following:

  1. One must appropriately cover his/her head; a scarf or a large handkerchief is regarded as preferable to a hat or a cap for a non-turbaned visitor. Most Gurdwaras (including ours) have a free supply of suitable scarves, which may be borrowed during the visit.
  1. A visitor must take off his/her shoes and place them on the racks or space provided at the entrance.
  1. Under No circumstances should any visitor have in their possession any tobacco product, alcoholic drink or drug; he/she should not have consumed any, or be under its influence, at the time of the visit.
  1. It is obligatory for every Sikh, young and old, to show the utmost respect to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Sacred Scripture) on approaching the Manji Sahib, who usually bow down on their knees, often touching the floor with their foreheads. However, it is regarded as dignified for a non-Sikh visitor to show respect to the Sikh "Holy Scriptures" by bowing, or standing still for a second and then moving away with a respectful nod
  1. It is regarded as discourteous to stand with one's back to the Guru Granth, or to stretch one's feet towards the Guru while sitting. Similarly, clapping is not allowed in the Gurdwara.
seeker · 03/11/2011 18:22

"

grovel · 03/11/2011 18:22

Don't worry, OP. The trip won't happen unless all the boys can grow beards in time.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/11/2011 18:24

seeker, why do you think everyone is ignoring this point, made well by you, me and others?