To get annoyed that some mumsnetters think dogs should be perfect all the time

[lesley33]

I try and be a responsible dog owner. I call my dog back if he is near anyone who looks uncomfortable with him, I move him over to the side of the path to let joggers by and clear up dog mess.

But some posters on here seem to think that dogs should alwa\ys be perfectly behaved, never run up to strangers and never bark at people.

Dogs are not robots. However much you train them no dog will always behave 100% perfectly all the time. Some dogs are harder to train. For example, dogs that are really really dim or dogs that have a very nervy and neurotic personality.

We all accept that DCs will not always behave in public. I think most dogs generally behave well most of the time - but it is unrealistic to expect them never to misbehave. So AIBU?

I like dogs, but I can't believe how accepting owners can be of their bad behaviour.

My cousin brought her puppy to my dd's second birthday party. It jumped on all the little children, terrified my dd. I just couldn't believe it was happening. There is no way she would have accepted that kind of behaviour from her children.

Your cousin was vvu - a kids birthday party is not a place for any puppy. Puppies will get overexcited in this situation and be hard to handle.

It is pretty simple really.

You take your dog to places where they are ALLOWED to be off the lead and you let them off the lead. If someone chooses to take thier DCs to a place where dogs are allowed to be off the lead, then they can expect to find dogs, off the lead who might on occasion approach them or their children.

You DON'T let your dog off the lead places where this is prohibited. If people take their DCs to a place where dogs are NOT allowed off the lead then there should be no dogs off the lead approaching them or their children.

Dogs need to be exercised off the lead for their health and mental well-being. Therefore places where dogs can be let of the lead need to exist. People do not HAVE to take their children to such places and if they are bothered by dogs shouldn't.

There are plenty of dog free or dogs on lead places to take DCs and plenty of places where dogs can be off the lead to take dogs.

You are well within your rights to be angry if you go somewhere where dogs are meant to be kept on a lead and find they are not, but if you go somewhere where dogs are allowed to be off the lead and then complain YABVU

I agree with that. I would never take my dog off the lead where it is supposed to be on the lead.

LapsedPacifist how horrible for your DS (both school and dog) - esp hope school situation improves sharpish for you

Dogs are not equal to humans. They are lovely furry waggy sentient beings with a huge capacity for snuffling the shopping love and should be treated with love respect and care. But they are not, nor ever can be, humans or equal to humans. Making comparisons between children and dogs as if to suggest "well if unruly dogs have to be on leads so do unruly children" is pretty outrageous - I just don't understand how that can ever be!

How are dogs equal to children or adult humans? I consider that I "own" my dog (therefore not believing it to be free because I was quite willing to part it from its family to selfishly enjoy its company and literally have it at my beck and call - all things I have done by choosing to own a dog) so I can't simultaneously believe my dog to be an autonomous being deserving of equal care and consideration (rights) to humans, can I? I don't think I own my DC. I think I am responsible for them. For me, not believing that dogs have the same rights as humans does not mean that dogs are not entitled to be looked after, kept safe, healthy etc. I wouldn't support a charter for dog-beaters but neither do I think my dog should have the right to vote, I s'pose.

Perhaps move nearer open spaces you can let your dogs off the lead (including your older one) if its too inconvenient/time consuming Lesley33? That would mean putting your inconvenience and upheaval behind that of your dogs and your dogs' welfare first but then if you believe that your dogs' welfare is above that of other peoples (in public spaces) I guess that's what you do.

This: "In conclusion, I DO keep my dogs on the lead 99% of the time- to their detriment, and out of respect for the people we might one day meet in the back of beyond. But it does sting a little." That is exactly how I feel. But I also blame the irresponsible dog owners for making it that way as opposed to the people in public spaces. Maybe if there were more responsible dogowners there would be less people scared of dogs.

In other countries, where dogs are allowed to be more free, I wonder if there is greater incidence of dog attacks/bites?

I think dogs are more chilled when they are allowed to be dogs and roam and sniff and do an occasional wander. City dogs on leash all the time seem a bit nervous and aggressive to me.

The free range dogs are often less interested in people because they have met strangers so many times before and are no longer interested because they have been there, done that. There are usually no screams from children either, as in some other continental countries, people would be bemused that children have not been socialised around dogs. And parents would be embarrassed about their kid's behaviour, not casting evil eyes at the dog owner (if he/she can be seen anywhere)

Actually I think keeping children on a leash - and preferably muzzled - when out would be a Goood Thing :o

I wonder when the first Dog Buggies will arrive....

In other countries, where dogs are allowed to be more free, I wonder if there is greater incidence of dog attacks/bites?

The past was another country too, there were no real problems when I was growing up. We used to carry bike pumps then, and bopped over-eager dogs on the nose.

There already are dog buggies. I did a double take in Pets At Home last year

It cuts both ways - some people think dogs should be perfect all the time. Some dog-owners think other people should be accepting of their dog's behaviour all the time.

The problem is that if your dog misbehaves once and causes upset or inconvenience to a stranger, that person has only seen the bad behaviour and has no idea that 99% of the time the dog in question behaves impeccably. They remember the bad behaviour because that is what affected them. And the next time they are affected by another dog's one incident of bad behaviour, that reinforces their negative view of dogs/dog-owners generally.

I am not terribly fussed about dogs either way. I don't remember the hundreds or thousands of dogs that I see going about their lives not interfering with mine - but I do remember the yorkshire terrier that chased and nipped me as a child, and I do remember the labrador that went barrelling flat-out for DS when he was toddling about in a park and scared the hell out of me, and I do remember the annoying, jumpy, yappy terrier that an old lady used to bring on our locl bus and which managed to ladder my tights twice and cover my work clothes in mud because she had no control over it. All fairly minor incidents and I'm not exactly still fuming over them years later, but they did stick in my mind because they annoyed me at the time.

As I said on the other very similar thread - I don't understand why this is such a hotly debated issue. It's like anything else that people choose to do - some people will go about things with no consideration for others, most people will go about things in an entirely reasonable way. But whenever it comes up on a thread, a lot of people seem to entirely abandon the middle ground and take up cliched camps - if you don't like dogs you are painted as some kind of flapping, whinging idiot. If you like dogs then you are painted as some kind of inconsiderate, entitled idiot.

It's like anything else - people remember what annoys/affects them.

PartyPooperz - I live in the suburbs near lots of open green spaces. Most of the time they are quiet with only dog walkers and joggers. But during a lovely summer day there are lots of people suddenly out. And actually that is the same in the countryside. If I drive out to the Peak District, anywhere I can walk my old dog for 15 minutes will have lots of people there on a nice sunny day - remember lots of fields have livestock. So sorry I think you are unrealistic.

And I do think keeping a dog on the lead nearly all the time is cruel. I walk an old ladys dog as well once a week. He isn't so well behaved, but it is difficult to train a dog when you have them for 1 hour once a week. Sometimes I do keep him on the lead the whole time, but even then I run with him so he gets enough exercise. But this only works because he is a small dog that can't run that much faster than me.

A dog never given much opportunity to run about will not be getting anywhere near enough exercise for their health. So if dogs are not going to be alolowed off the lead then I actually think we should ban dog ownership. I don't think keeping a dog on the lead is a good compromise at all.

And i don't think dogs have equal rights to humans. My point was just that because dogs are living creatures, they will not behave 100% well 100% of the time - like every other living creature where we try and control their behaviour.

Much to my DH's disgust I have a dog buggy! Its an old child's one which fits on the back of MY bike for long rides, both dog and DH highly embarrassed!! Ha ha the look on people's faces when they see the black howling furry thing instead of a cute kid!

A dog's intelligence has been likened to a 2 year old by some experts (don't ask for a link as I can't remember which experts). I'd most certainly have a 2 year old child on reins (or at least holding a hand) or in a pushchair if out and about unless we were somewhere where it was appropriate for the little one to be let to run about (enclosed park etc). I think the same should apply to dogs.

We get so many people who think 3pm is a great time to let their dogs off the lead near the local primary school. These are the same people who think it's the children's problem if a dog barks/jumps up and frightens them. All they'd have to do is walk their dogs half an hour later, or keep them on a lead, or go in the opposite direction, but they don't.

I do think dogs should be kept on a lead unless you are happy that there are no risks of upsetting folk/livestock. If it all goes wrong and they cause offence then you should apologise and not be surprised by people's anger. They are animals even though I love mine he's my best mate.

I go for walks in my local country park in the summer. ONLY in the parts that dogs must be kept on leads. Because I have a ds who is terrified of dogs. However - 99% of the dog walkers there refuse to leash their dogs when they leave the leash-free area.

My DS2 was already terrified of dogs before we had an incident - now he visibly shakes in terror when he sees them. We were walking through the country park, in the area where dogs should be kept on leashes. We were walking along eating our sandwiches, when a yorkshire terrier ran from seemingly nowhere, jumped up at my DS2, grabbed his sandwich, knocked him over (he has muscle problems, even a Yorkie going full pelt can knock him off balance), had nipped his fingers leaving scrapes on them trying to grab his sandwich, and he had hit his head when he fell.

The owner came sauntering up, and when I complained to her, she said "Well it's only a tiny yorkie, she can't knock him over, he's putting it on, and if he hadn't been waving the sandwich around, it wouldn't have happened - you can't expect a dog not to get hungry when it is on it's walk". I deliberately took my dc for a walk where dogs should be kept on leads, thus I don't give two flying FIGS whether it's only a 'tiny yorkie' or if it is a GSD. NONE of the dogs should be off the leash there - I have MORE right to take my dc on a walk without fear of unleashed dogs barrelling at them for their food etc than the dog does to have a walk OFF it's leash in an area where it is MEANT to be leashed.

I don't CARE how inconvenient it is to the dog owner to have to drive or walk further to get to an area where there aren't dc running around / playing / walking, if the OWNER wants to walk the dog without a lead - the OWNER needs to get off their backsides and find somewhere suitable that WON'T run the risk of affecting other people's enjoyment of the place they are at. Because a LOT of people deliberately pick places to go with their dc that there shouldn't be unleashed dogs. If it is a park where there are dc - KEEP YOUR DOG ON THE LEAD, if you want to let your dog off the lead - THEN FIND SOMEWHERE THAT ISN'T GOING TO BOTHER OTHER PEOPLE.

And no, I am NOT a 'dog-hater', when I did keep dogs, they were either walked on a leash, or I travelled further afield in order to let them off their leash safely. It's called being considerate to other people and UNDERSTANDING that other people will not necessarily see your bundle os fluffy woofyness as cute, other people may see even the smallest, cutest of dogs as scary and menacing, and NOT expect them to be unleashed in public areas.

manic - Yes dogs have about the same level of psychological need as a 2 year old. But while a 2 year old needs to be active, it doesn't need to run about a fairly wide range to physically healthy. With all breeds there is a recommenfded level of exercise and for some such as collies, this is very very high.

Lesley33 - I am not saying that a dog should never be let off it's leash - I am saying that a prospective dog owner should look at the local amenities to make sure there are SUITABLE places to walk their dog unleashed that they are prepared to walk / drive to every day BEFORE they get a dog. It's called being a responsible dog owner. And it's something that in YOUR OWN previous post, you refuse to do. Therefore you ARE putting YOUR dog's need to be walked unleashed, and your need not to bother travelling further afield to find a suitable place to walk the dog unleashed (see the quote from YOUR OWN POST below), ABOVE the need of the children / runners / anyone else really to go about their business unmolested by unleashed dogs. Makes me feel that YOU are NOT a responsible dog owner, much as you profess to be one.

Your post that proves this IMO is here:

"why can't they make the effort to do the 40 min round trip walk to the nearest weald"

When I walk the old ladys dog i take it to the canal by car - it takes me 40-45 minutes to do this and the walk. Usually pretty quiet, except on a glorious day when it can be busy. I would have to drive very far to get a totally deserted place.

My very old dog can't actually walk that far now,without a rest. I am not driving for maybe an hour round trip for a walk that takes 15 minutes twice a day. And sometimes he can't even manage that before getting too tired.

And that is why people should put more thought into their personal circumstances and what kind of dog would suit them.

I have a cat. The only way I am able to have a cat is to have one that stays indoors as I'm on a very busy main road and the poor thing would be squished within minutes. So when choosing my cat, I went for one that needed to be an indoor one.

I am not prepared to do that because my dog doesn't molest or harass others. I am not prepared to drive for 2 hours a day to take my old dog for 2 15 minute walks when he has very good recall, can't run at or jump up on people or a whole range of other undesirable behaviours.

I think that's fair enough but don't see why a dog that old would need to be off the lead as it can't run about anyway?

I used to be very phobic around dogs. I take total responsibility for that, and I've worked hard to overcome it, to understand more about dogs and to reduce my anxiety around dogs (with good success).

But I think that some dog owners do not understand what goes on in the head of someone who is anxious about dogs. lesley33 you said that your dog would not snatch a sausage from the hand of a child, but would beg for it. You know that what your dog is doing is begging for a saugage, but someone who is anxious about dogs sees a large animal with an intent stare, more focussed on them then on the owner. And that can feel frightening.

The dog may not be a danger, the reaction may be illogical, but perhaps you could see it from the other side?

You should expect to see dogs off the leash ANYWHERE where it is permitted for them to be off the leash.

If you or your DCs have an issue with dogs - DON'T GO TO PLACES WHERE DOGS CAN BE EXERCISED OFF THE LEASH. It's fairly simple. You or your child have the issue / phobia / dislike so you need to alter your behaviour or where you go to take account of that. It is not for the dog owners of the world to avoid places where it is perfectly legal to walk a dog off the lead just in case someone who is scared of dogs has gone there too.

However, If you are a dog owner and you let your dog off the leash somewhere it isn't permitted you are an idiot and don't deserve to have a dog.

No my old dog doesn't need to be on the lead. I actually take it off as otherwise if I am not paying attention, he can get tangled up in it as he walks soooo slooow.

But the dog I walk for an old lady does need to be off the lead.

I am not prepared to do that because my dog doesn't molest or harass others. I am not prepared to drive for 2 hours a day to take my old dog for 2 15 minute walks when he has very good recall, can't run at or jump up on people or a whole range of other undesirable behaviours.

then i guess you'd better be prepared to keep him on a lead when you are in public places. huntycat is right - you really are not coming across as a "responsible dog owner", just as someone who thinks that the rules of responsible dog ownership should not apply to you.

my DH was walking our dog, on lead, last month, when he had to see a neighbour's dog killed by a car. it was not on a lead because it was a 'good dog' and 'never did that before'.

i suspect she was one of the unsupervised dogs that crap on our street, too - but she didn't deserve to die because of her shit owners.