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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

in relation to my cleaner and holiday pay?

139 replies

HappyAsIAm · 26/10/2011 14:33

We have had the same weekly cleaner for the past 3 or so years. She does cleaning and ironing for 6 hours a week. Her hourly rate is £9, but I pay her £10, because I think that's fair. She is very reliable and trustworthy, and does helpful things like answers the door if I'm not there and takes in a delivery etc. I pay her cash every week, so £60. I don't ask whether she pays tax etc.

She is a very good cleaner, and I am happy with her. By equal measure, I think I am a good employer - in the past I have given her wages in advance on occasion when he needs the money, have lent her £200 when she needed a despoit for her new lease etc. I give her £50 at Christmas and at easter, and sometimes provide her with lunch (always with drinks) if we are eating our lunch at home whilst she is there. (Usually we are out for nearly the whole time she is there.)

Anyway - to the point. We are going on holiday for nearly 3 weeks. So that would be 3 weeks in a row that we wouldn't be in the house when she was due to work There isn't anything for her to do at home if we are not there and messing the place up and producing ironing as I am on top of everything else. I know that she needs the money, so I have proposed to her that:

(i) during week 1 of our holiday, she changes her working day to a day that we are there
(ii) during week 2, she doesn't come at all
(iii) during week three, she changes her working day to a day that we are there.

This is not because I want her to change her days, this is only to accommodate her as I know that she needs the money, and she knows that.

She is happy to change her working days on week one and week three. But she is not happy to not be paid for week 2, as she says she needs the £60, as her job wth us pays her the most of all of her cleaning jobs (she cleans for various people every week, but this only adds up to another 20 hours or so - some of this work is because I have put her in touch with friends of mine). She has asked for half her wages ie £30 for week 2, even though she will not be working that week.

I don't want to pay her £30 for doing nothing. We go on a three week holiday at about this time of year, and a one week holiday at Christmas. I feel that if I pay her £30 for this week, I will have to do the same at Christmas as I am setting a precedent. And I feel that I have already offered my compromise by suggesting that she change her working days on weeks one and three. So I have proposed that if she wants £30, she should do an extra hour and a half on week one and an extra hour and a half on week three for the £30. Obviously this means that she is still £30 'down' but she does have a week off. I know that she doesn't want the week off though, she would rather work that week and earn £60. I know that times are very hard for her as she has told me how much she is struggling with paying for things for her and her DCs (they live with her family in the West indies and she lives here to earn more money than she would in the WI). I also know that i live in relative luxury compared to what she and her family live in and I am conscious of this.

I have done all of this in a friendly and professional way. She has sent me a text back and said "well if thats the best you can do I'll have to live with it".

AIBU to be peeved?

OP posts:

mycatoscar · 26/10/2011 16:46

YANBU to not want to pay her for not working tbh, especially as this is what has happened in the past. She is self employed and as such, only gets paid for hours she actually works.

Having read your post about the alarm and reasons why its not an option to have her there whilst you are away, I would suggest to her that you are happy to pay her for the hours she would have done that week if she comes to your house on another day and makes up the hours - she could clean out the linen cupboard or larder, shampoo the carpets, clean all the windows, defrost the freezer, or ven babysit whilst you have an evening out maybe? Or do you need some sewing or other domestic stuff doing?

I do however think her text sounds extremely rude and presumptious - she has never been paid for days unworked and shouldnt be getting uppity at you now because you are suggesting doing the same thing you have done for 3 years.

catsrus · 26/10/2011 16:52

eurochick and OP scroll down the page on my first link to this
bit - you can be an employee of lots of people (I am, currently 6hrs wk for one employer, 2 hrs for another - PAYE is operated in both places)

larrygrylls · 26/10/2011 16:55

I am sorry but that is plain mean. What is £30 or even £60 to you? A few cocktails one evening in a nice hotel perhaps? But, to someone who relies on the money, it can make a huge difference. It just shows such a lack of imagination about some people's circumstances.

I always pay my cleaner in full when we are on holiday, even though she has insisted I don't have to. I also give her a week's extra money at Christmas. I do try to find jobs for her to do when I am away, but if there are none, I just pay her anyway.

Ifancyashandy · 26/10/2011 17:03

When I've had a cleaner I've paid them if I'm on holiday. Reason? A good cleaner who you trust with your housekeys is worth their weight in gold.

Sod all the legalities. You can afford it. You'd be lost without her. Pay her the extra £30.

It's a no brainer.

minipie · 26/10/2011 17:04

I think the thread title is misleading - it's not "holiday pay", because it's your holiday, not hers.

I pay my cleaner when we are on holiday, because it's not her decision/her fault that she can't work that week. She may well be counting on the money.

I don't pay her when she is on holiday because that is her choice. (I do pay for bank holidays though).

So I think YABU.. a bit. I have to say though I think her text is a bit rude as it sounds like you are generous in other ways. I'd also be pretty annoyed with a cleaner who didn't turn up without giving any notice of that (unless it's a real emergency for her).

scaryteacher · 26/10/2011 17:08

I pay mine if we are away, not if she is.
I pick mine up from the tram and drop her back; she gets good coffee (not instant) and I buy her lunch each week. She gets 100 euros at Christmas, plus I pay her 2.50 euro per hour over the odds.

I would ask her to come in twice in one of the weeks and do things like windows, skirting boards, ovens etc, and pay her then, so she has her money and had done her day.

I do sometimes think mine sees me as a soft touch; she asks me to change days because it is more convenient for others or her. If we have changed computer screens etc she always asks if she can have the old one; at times (as she is legal here, we are abroad), she wants me to pay her cleaning cheques in advance to balance her books.

I don't think the OP is being mean Larry; if there is an unwritten understanding and then this is changed, it can set a precedent.

aldiwhore · 26/10/2011 17:11

I think there's a certain time limit on where something goes from casual to a contract of sorts... I don't even know what its called BUT my DH used to get a lot of work from one guy, for over 3 years, regular work. Inland Revenue changes have meant that holiday pay now gets factored into the daily rate. It may be different with domestic staff, I don't know. But it did ring a bell!

I would pay her for the full 3 weeks, even if it does set a precedent, not because you HAVE to but because surely you'd wish to retain her services? I wouldn't pay her when she take holiday though.

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 17:13

I would be tempted to be mean and point out how much tax she is probably saving by working cash in hand.

I don't think you are being mean. If you don't need her that week then you don't need her. You don't have a contract of employment with her that guarantees her a certain number of hours per week.

If you don't want to be mean and want to keep good relations with her and the 30 quid isn't a big deal to do I think you could easily find her some jobs to do. You'd come home to a sparkling clean house and all those once every few months jobs would be ticked off the list.

aldiwhore · 26/10/2011 17:13

I think you need to decide whether you are her customer, or her employer. If you are her employer, then I think you're bound by very different rules than if you are her customer.

carriedababi · 26/10/2011 17:23

yabu, pay her the money, im sure there must be something she can do.

minipie · 26/10/2011 17:28

Oh yes, as scaryteacher says - while I pay my cleaner if we are away, I would expect her to come in for that time. I ask her to do some "spring clean" type jobs when we are away - eg clean the oven, delimescale taps, etc. There is always something that needs doing!

GreenPetal94 · 26/10/2011 17:41

I'd offer her extra hours but not pay her £30 for nothing. A pile of ironing or cleaning out cupboards or something. The reason I say that is she does clearly need the money or she wouldn't have asked you for this £30. I think if you can afford £60 per week on cleaning and you like the woman you should pay.

That said I pay £20 a week for cleaning and do not pay holidays, but then I also let my cleaner take long unpaid breaks as she flies back to family in America. That's not so convenient for me but I don't want her to be out of a job over a 5 week break every couple of years.

FlyingStart · 26/10/2011 17:42

Decide whether you are her customer or her employer.

If you are her customer, why should you give her holiday pay?

When Tesco provide my weekly shopping to my house, do I pay Tesco "holiday pay" whilst I'm on holiday and I don't require a delivery? Of course not!

YANBU. As far as I can gather from your OP, you are not her employer. If you wish to be her employer and provide holiday pay, then draw up a contract of employment. Losing business because your customer has gone on holiday is all part of running a business and being self-employed. It goes with the territory.

oksonowwhat · 26/10/2011 17:45

This is enlightening!!! I do a couple of cleaning jobs (also work in a full time job) i have cleaned for one particular family for about ten years.

They have never EVER paid me when they go away. I know they trust me and i am very reliable and always do a good job and any extra things they ask for.

I'm dead fed up now!!! I would LOVE to be paid when they are away!!!!!

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 17:47

oksonowwhat perhaps next time they go away you could offer to go in as normal and spring clean for them if you still want to get paid. You never know, they might like that.

Laquitar · 26/10/2011 17:52

I 'm afraid this is one of the cons of being SE, you don't get paid holidays.

However if you want to help her can you find some extra jobs for week 2? Oven cleaning? Tidy up the garden?

Any friend/neighbour/relative that could do with a one off cleaning?

Christmas present for your mum/sister/friend? (that way you pay the £60 but you tick off a christmas gift)

oksonowwhat · 26/10/2011 17:53

kitkat, that kind of has happened before which was good. Lately though they are asking for springclean jobs as part of the normal clean...steam cleaning bathrooms, cleaning out cupboards etc., so i think they are trying to elimate the need for extra jobs/hours

I'm a soft touch tbh, i'm worried about losing the job so just do anything they ask to keep them happy. But i'm feeling abit taken for granted.

I'd love to work for some of the posters on this thread!!!

FabbyChic · 26/10/2011 17:54

If she was self-employed she would have to provide you with invoices and you would pay those invoices.

If she is PAYE you would deduct basic rate tax of 20% on her whole earnings. She cannot have it both ways. What is she?

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 17:56

She is obviously neither, she is working outside of the tax system. I bet she does not declare her cash in hand income.

FabbyChic · 26/10/2011 17:58

If she works the hours you choose when you say and you provide all the cleaning products she is an employee and you should pay her that way and give her four weeks paid holiday.

IF she provides all her cleaning equipment and works when she likes hours of her choosing she is self-employed. That is how easy it is to determine.

I'd remind her that if she was employed by you and could have four weeks paid leave i.e one day per week for four weeks you would have to deduct 20% of her income for tax purposes.

RedHelenB · 26/10/2011 18:05

My solution if you don't want her in the house when you are away is to offer her the extra hours to do "deep clean" stuff when you get back so she's not not out of pocket & you don't feel like you are paying her for doing nothing (even though you chose to go away)

Maryz · 26/10/2011 18:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

oksonowwhat · 26/10/2011 18:13

hmmm not so sure its so easy to determine. I more or less pick my hours, although i don't like to mess my client round too much. I take my own cleaning equipment, including vacumn cleaner.

I do not invoice her. But i do a self assessment tax form each year for my cleaning jobs. Its worked out so far. You don't actually know that shes not doing that??? My client has never asked me what i do tax wise, one other client once told me not to declare that i was cleaning for her! I declared it as usual though.

FabbyChic · 26/10/2011 18:14

When you work self employed you have to have a paper trail. That includes invoices to clients.

RitaMorgan · 26/10/2011 18:22

The downside of being self-employed is you only get paid when you work. You are her client, not her boss.

Would you pay other self-employed people when you were on holiday? Gardener, dog-walker, plumber, hairdresser etc?

My DP is self-employed, and I was until recently too, and unfortunately when the work isn't there it isn't there. However working for yourself gives you a lot more freedom to set your own hours, rates and services.

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