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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

in relation to my cleaner and holiday pay?

139 replies

HappyAsIAm · 26/10/2011 14:33

We have had the same weekly cleaner for the past 3 or so years. She does cleaning and ironing for 6 hours a week. Her hourly rate is £9, but I pay her £10, because I think that's fair. She is very reliable and trustworthy, and does helpful things like answers the door if I'm not there and takes in a delivery etc. I pay her cash every week, so £60. I don't ask whether she pays tax etc.

She is a very good cleaner, and I am happy with her. By equal measure, I think I am a good employer - in the past I have given her wages in advance on occasion when he needs the money, have lent her £200 when she needed a despoit for her new lease etc. I give her £50 at Christmas and at easter, and sometimes provide her with lunch (always with drinks) if we are eating our lunch at home whilst she is there. (Usually we are out for nearly the whole time she is there.)

Anyway - to the point. We are going on holiday for nearly 3 weeks. So that would be 3 weeks in a row that we wouldn't be in the house when she was due to work There isn't anything for her to do at home if we are not there and messing the place up and producing ironing as I am on top of everything else. I know that she needs the money, so I have proposed to her that:

(i) during week 1 of our holiday, she changes her working day to a day that we are there
(ii) during week 2, she doesn't come at all
(iii) during week three, she changes her working day to a day that we are there.

This is not because I want her to change her days, this is only to accommodate her as I know that she needs the money, and she knows that.

She is happy to change her working days on week one and week three. But she is not happy to not be paid for week 2, as she says she needs the £60, as her job wth us pays her the most of all of her cleaning jobs (she cleans for various people every week, but this only adds up to another 20 hours or so - some of this work is because I have put her in touch with friends of mine). She has asked for half her wages ie £30 for week 2, even though she will not be working that week.

I don't want to pay her £30 for doing nothing. We go on a three week holiday at about this time of year, and a one week holiday at Christmas. I feel that if I pay her £30 for this week, I will have to do the same at Christmas as I am setting a precedent. And I feel that I have already offered my compromise by suggesting that she change her working days on weeks one and three. So I have proposed that if she wants £30, she should do an extra hour and a half on week one and an extra hour and a half on week three for the £30. Obviously this means that she is still £30 'down' but she does have a week off. I know that she doesn't want the week off though, she would rather work that week and earn £60. I know that times are very hard for her as she has told me how much she is struggling with paying for things for her and her DCs (they live with her family in the West indies and she lives here to earn more money than she would in the WI). I also know that i live in relative luxury compared to what she and her family live in and I am conscious of this.

I have done all of this in a friendly and professional way. She has sent me a text back and said "well if thats the best you can do I'll have to live with it".

AIBU to be peeved?

OP posts:

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 26/10/2011 14:55

PO? I meant OP, obv.

MrsCampbellBlack · 26/10/2011 14:56

Well my cleaner is fab and I pay her when I'm on holiday (she comes in as can always find jobs for her to do) and also when she's on holiday.

For me I think thats fair as I value her so much.

MrsMilton · 26/10/2011 14:56

YANBU. The plan you have proposed is exactly what I do with cleaner and she is fine with that. She is onto a good number with you. You pay her cash in hand and don't ask to see proof that she is paying tax. You do not have a contract, she is doing casual work. She could leave you at any time with no notice or choose to have a month's holiday herself. She is her own boss, you are not. Sounds like you treat her well, do you think you have become over-friendly and she is taking advantage of that?

Other option would be to leave a key and get her to do big jobs like clean the oven, fridge, windows etc on the middle week.

If she wants holiday pay, she needs to sign a contract with you. I wonder would she want to do that?

Lizcat · 26/10/2011 14:56

I think this is very common with cleaners - as Lydia pointed out you have not defined whether you are her employer or are purchasing a service from her. Does she send someone else when she is on holiday? If she does you are purchasing a service and can choose not to have the service with reasonable notice. If, however, she works only for you and it can only be her there is a good chance that she is an employee and is therefore entitled to her 5.6 weeks (prorata) paid holiday just like you are and should be on PAYE.

downpipe · 26/10/2011 14:58

YANBU
You seem to treat your cleaner v well and pay her well.
But what happens if she has a holiday, is it paid or unpaid?If her holiday is unpaid I think that when you are away she should get paid something as it is not her choice not to work then.
I pay my cleaner when she is on holiday for up to 6 weeks per year, but that is on the understanding that she still comes when we are on holiday as there is always more to do.
She gets paid less than yours though but the going rate for round here (£25 for 3 hours)

Original poster

HappyAsIAm · 26/10/2011 15:08

Quite a difference of opinion. I think its about 50/50. Interesting to see from the point of view of a cleaner that they think I am not BU too.

She is self-employed. We do not have a written contract (whch is the difference between oyr relationship and for example, the one iwhich some posters have in relation to childminders and nurseries). She works week to week, for cash in hand, and if, for example, she chose not to come into work one week (as she has done in the past), I would just have to live with it.

I appreciate that it is only £30 at stake. But I think that if I pay it this time, I am setting a precedent for next time.

And yes, she is a good cleaner. But I am a good employer too. I am very conscious that she is relying on the money. And I know that my circumstances are very different from hers. But I think its also fair to say that this is probably the case for a lot of people who do cleaning. In the majority of cases (and I know that there will be exceptions depending on the circumstances of the families who need help), the cleaner earns less then the employer, which is why the employer can afford a cleaner

I asked for opinions, and I have them, so I can take them on board. I apreciate the replies, and will think them through. I don't want her to come when we are overseas, as I have left her to put the house alarm on and given her instructions on how it works when she leaves and we are not in the house at the time in the past. And she hasn't done it properly, and I have come home to a shrieking alarm, and so I am reluctant to suggest this.

OP posts:

Original poster

HappyAsIAm · 26/10/2011 15:10

Catching up with the thread - she has never taken holiday. She has had a few weeks where she has simply not turned up (no notice) though.

OP posts:

OTheHugeWerewolef · 26/10/2011 15:11

I think YANBU. But at the end of the day it's your call how you want to deal with your employee.

As a compromise, could you think of some 'deep cleaning' type jobs for her to tackle in the week you're away? eg kitchen cupboards, behind things, do a load of ironing, clean blinds, wash net curtains (if you have 'em), that kind of thing? If there's no 'new' mess you could see it as an opportunity for her to crack on with stuff there isn't usually time to get round to.

TheRealTillyMinto · 26/10/2011 15:12

i get my cleaner to do extra jobs when we are away. e.g. take everything out of the kitchen cupboards & clean them. she has a free rein to go through any cupboard she likes.... there is nothing exciting in my house!

TheOriginalFAB · 26/10/2011 15:15

I think any goodwill she might have been entitled too has been lost by her rude text.

microfight · 26/10/2011 15:19

I do the same as you OP same hourly rate and give a £100 bonus once a year at Christmas.

I do the same as other posters on here if she can't come I don't pay her but if I cancel her I pay her. When we go away I get her to do all the stuff like deep clean of oven, kitchen cupboards etc that she never has time to do with a normal clean.

However, you are quite within your rights not to pay her anything.
Also, I would never loan anyone money, you are just asking for the relationship to change. I think this is one of the reasons she has asked for the £30 because she thinks you are there to help when she's short of cash.

catsrus · 26/10/2011 15:35

it might be common to employ cleaners like this - but technically it's wrong, they are employees not self employed. Here are the HMRC guidelines to the difference

www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm#1

you should be dealing with issues of tax & NI and giving her holiday pay - there is a simplified scheme for domestic employees though - very easy to operate

www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/intro/domestic-employees.htm

LittleHarrysMum · 26/10/2011 15:35

If you have had her cleaning for you for 3 years and have the same holiday every year, what has happened previously??

catsrus · 26/10/2011 15:37

employee or self employed

simplified scheme

alwayspoor · 26/10/2011 15:44

I think you are being more than fair. I paid my last cleaner only when she worked regardless although I always offered to pay her if I was sick, away etc.

fuzzynavel · 26/10/2011 15:45

Maybe you need to go through the right channels now.

eurochick · 26/10/2011 15:45

We pay our cleaner when we are on holiday. We don't pay her when she goes away or doesn't come for some other reason.

If we are away for two weeks we have her do the usual stuff one week and the other week ask her to do a one off job like clean the fridge or the oven. it probably doesn't take her the full 4 hours but it's fine. They are not nice jobs but she keeps her income the same (and probably does a bit less work for it) and we come home to a nice clean house.

soandsosmummy · 26/10/2011 15:48

if I am away i pay my cleaner. if she does not turn up for reasons of her own I don't though i try to be flexible and let her move her day if she needs to.

Could you have her in during week 2 and ask her to do some of the things that she would not normally get to - eg turning out and cleaning cupboards, cleaning windows, polishing furniture?

eurochick · 26/10/2011 15:48

catsrus how does those guidelines make them employees when they carry out work for several different people?

witchyhills · 26/10/2011 15:54

£100 bonus microfight?! that's good
OP, I think you should give her the £30. It is ,in fact a compromise, as you are not giving her the full £60.
Make it clear that you don't want to set a precedent, it is just because you are away for 3 weeks and you appreciate that is a long time.

plainwhitet · 26/10/2011 15:58

HappyasIam. How about you agree to pay her the full amount in the middle week; she does not come in for the reasons you state (alarm etc), and then you donate the x hours cleaning to a promises auction or school raffle or whatever comes up next; you tell her that is what you plan to do; check she agrees, and then everyone is happy. You because you have not set a precedent, she because she is paid, someone running a promises auction because they get six hours of a tiptopcleaner to auction. Just a thought.

Adversecamber · 26/10/2011 16:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fivegomadindorset · 26/10/2011 16:20

I think YABU, it wasn't her choice for you to go on holiday so a bit mean of you to not pay her. Can she not do a deep clean, of oven, kitchen cupboards etc?

cwtch4967 · 26/10/2011 16:20

If think she needs to be reminded that she is being paid £1.00 per hour above her usual rate plus bonus at Easter / Christmas. You are also bending over backwards to accommodate her while you are away. I think you are being more than reasonable.

Original poster

HappyAsIAm · 26/10/2011 16:22

I think my post in the middle of the thread has got lost in the many replies, so I am re-posting it: (sorry for the bold)
_

Quite a difference of opinion. I think its about 50/50. Interesting to see from the point of view of a cleaner that they think I am not BU too.

I appreciate that it is only £30 at stake. But I think that if I pay it this time, I am setting a precedent for next time.

I still think she is self-employed by the way. She can also change her working day when it suits her and has done in the past. She also works for many other people - maybe 4 other people a week, doing cleaning work. But I take the point of there being no written contract.

When we have taken holiday previously, she has either changed her working days, or she hasn't been paid. I estimate that, of the 4 weeks every year that we take holiday, she has previously changed her working days for two of those weeks, and hasn't been paid for the other two.

But I take on board the replies. I am going to think it all through a bit more. I won't be able to check the thread for a couple of days now as I'll have no internet access, but I'll come back after that.

OP posts:

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