about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

Good for her, about time people started standing up for common sense and childrens rights.

You want to take a sharp instrument to your newborn childs genitals and remove part of it for no other reason than its whats done? Shame on you, of course she is disgusted.

It's child abuse, pure and simple. I don't know how anyone with an ounce of humanity can be a part of it.

With reference to that "woolly C of E" comment above - I think one of the mistakes devout people regularly make is assuming people who have different points of view do not believe in them just as fervently as they do. Which considering the vehemence on this thread, is surprising.

Jen, for every 3 men in the world, one is circumcised. Do you really, sincerely, think that one in three mothers and fathers of boys are child abusers? So there are literally billions of child abusers in the world? You believe that every Korean, Turkish, Pakistani parent is a child abuser?

Circumcision is extremely prevalent in large parts of the world, but extremely rare in the UK. I never fail to be amazed at the ethnocentrism on this board whenever it is discussed.

The OP is 39 weeks pregnant and already upset about this issue. Can anybody tell me how calling her a child abuser is helpful at this point?

I wouldn't go to a celebrate cutting a bit of a boy's penis off either, it's disgusting, barbaric, vile and completely wrong thing to do.

FellationNelson
FGM is present in Christian societies and Traditional Religious societies in Africa, it is a cultural practice justified by reference to an number of different religions not just Islam

"FGM prevalence by religion
FGM is a cultural and social practice, rather than a religious one. It occurs among all religious groups (Christian, Muslims, a small sect of Jews, and indigenous groups) in Africa, although no religion mandates it. In Burkina Faso, CAR, Côte d?Ivoire, Mali, Niger, and (northern) Sudan, Muslim women are more likely to have undergone FGM than Christian women. However, in Kenya and Tanzania, a higher percentage of Christian than Muslim women undergo FGM (38% vs. 28%, and 19% vs. 14%, respectively). In Mali and Tanzania, womenwho practice traditional religions have the highest prevalence of FGM in the country (95% and 22%, respectively).Notably, ethnicity also confounds efforts to examine the role thatreligion plays in FGM prevalence."

Taken from this document
www.path.org/files/CP_fgm_combnd_rpt.pdf

Why ethnocentric?
Answer me this then, if I personally want to cut a bit of my baby is it ok? What is it that makes it ok? Religion? Does religion make anything I want to do to my baby ok?

You can't adequately answer those questions, you can only attack those who are against it.
Its pretty simple: removing body parts from a child without medical reason is a bad thing. Religion does not obviate this fact. Acknowledging this does not make one racist or xenophobic or ethnocentric.

I believe that giving a child a religion is wrong. It should be left for them to decide if they want anything to do with it when they are old enough.

Primafacie Tue 25-Oct-11 12:55:13
Jen, for every 3 men in the world, one is circumcised. Do you really, sincerely, think that one in three mothers and fathers of boys are child abusers? So there are literally billions of child abusers in the world? You believe that every Korean, Turkish, Pakistani parent is a child abuser?

Circumcision is extremely prevalent in large parts of the world, but extremely rare in the UK. I never fail to be amazed at the ethnocentrism on this board whenever it is discussed.

Yes, yes I do. I think 1/3 of all parents are backward and barbaric to severe a part of their baby's penis for cultural/historical/religious reasons. And I couldn't really give a shit if the OP is upset, no more upset than her poor son will be when he realises not only was he put through unnecessary pain with an irreversible procedure but that his sex life is compromised forever, the glans loses some sensitivity due to constant exposure. Fucking disgusting.

I think calling it abuse is exteme as uncomfy as I am with the idea those who do it for cultural/religious reasons do it for what is to them very good reasons. I would only think of it as abuse if the parents didnt ensure it was done as safely as possible.

I would never want to be a part of such a ceremony though!

I'm with your SIL. It is disgusting and she has every right to say so. Absolutely barbaric.

It is worth telling her what we think at this stage as she hasn't actually done it yet and it might be worth her considering exactly why she wants to conform to this part of her religion/culture given that her DH is "only" a secular jew and she is a liberal jew. It is also worth her considering whether she will find the bris upsetting. I cannot imagine subjecting my 8 day old baby to something like this when it isn't medically necessary. I know that people have a hard enough time when their children undergo medically required procedures. She might have another DS at some point and having subjected her first son to circumcision may not be comfortable doing it again. Perhaps she would like to see this recent thread.

Yes it's a shame that the OP is upset, but often facing up to the truth of something is upsetting.

Perhaps if 1/3 of all parents of boys were to actually think about the issue and research and debate it rationally rather than just blindly following what their religion told them to do...

Grrrr
I knew I shouldn't have clicked on a thread with a religious theme. Nothing else gets me quite so wound up

For the record Primafacie the "lots of people do it, therefore it's ok" argument is about as ridiculous as the "it's part of my religion and therefore it's ok" argument.

If someone was drugged with rohypnol and was therefore unable to say no to sex then people would be up in arms saying how awful it was that they were raped.

A baby that is unable to say no to having part of it's body hacked off is seen as perfectly fine though.

If it is done for medical reasons then obviously it is in the child's best interest and would be done properly with minimum upset for the child.

Northern 'The OP is 39 weeks pregnant and already upset about this issue. Can anybody tell me how calling her a child abuser is helpful at this point?'

But the OP isn't upset about the circumcision though, is she? She's upset because her SIL has refused to to have any part in the ceremony.

Not that I'm for hurling accusations of 'child abuser' at very pregnant women; however, I do feel that the act is abusive and not justifiable.

MrBloomsMutilation
"I'm muslim and want my son circumsized. Something that seems barbaric to one person, may not seem barbaric to another. I don't even understand why people are making comments like "it's mutilation...its barbaric...its wrong..", when it's part of OP's religion. It's not like she's going to change her faith just because people on MN try to make her feel bad for practising a part of her faith..."

Can you describe the bit where part of a boy's penis is cut off that isn't barbaric and cruel? (forget the book you read it in, forget religion) This is a tiny baby's perfectly healthy penis that you want to chop. It's bad enough watching a baby vaccinated but this is so unnecessary and horrific. Would you pull off his fingernail? Slice his ear too?

It's VILE, upsetting and I couldn't watch. If you can OP then get your boy snipped.

Actually it makes me more proud than ever to be an atheist.

Well she is hardly likely to say on introduction "Hello my name is X, by the way I think circumcision is abhorrent and I wont attend a Bris mutilation session is she ?

Thank you for that Chazs - very interesting!

She could have been more tactful, but consider if you saw someone abusing a child in the street - let's say cutting the tip of their finger off with a knife. Would you be tactful?

To me circumcision is vile. I don't go around looking for Jewish people to say that to, but if it comes up then I must be honest and I can't imagine what kind of person would do such a thing.

I promise that hearing your baby scream in pain will haunt you, it will be all you can do not to rip him from the table to rescue him. And if you can't watch OP but you'll put your son through it, more shame on you.

PoP - This really has descended into the clueless egging on the gullible. The baby won't be on a table. I was at a brit on Sunday, and the "grisly" part lasted 75 seconds (of which the baby cried for the last 45, but calmed down immediately afterwards). My DS's have accidents almost every day where they cry for longer than that.

A lot of posters seem to be under the impression that there are whole communities full of people who have given up brittot. There aren't. There may be some isolated liberal communities where it is tolerated, but for the most part if you want your son to be Jewish and in any way religiously involved, he has to have a brit.

As for sons being upset when they find out what has happened to them, none of my friends or their DP's and no-one in my extended family has ever expressed the slightest concern about it. They would probably be more irritated to find out that they have been excluded from the community and a large part of their family by their parents' reliance on MN for their religious outlook...