about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

You are describing what happens in The Netherlands; that is not what happens in other countries. I do not doubt your description of your own cultural context and you should not doubt my description of my own.

Please can someone tell me why Jewish men have to be circumcised? Where doesn't say they have to be and what are the reasons given?

bonsoir you can't look at a child at 8 days old and know for sure how he is going to think and feel in the future. He is an individual in his own right, as well as a member of a family and a community.

Bonsoir, if your daughter had to have FGM to fit in to your comunity, could you do it?

Oh, and there are cultures where in order to be accepted, a girl has to undergo a clitoridectomy. Is that somethingbthwt should be allowed because tradition demands it?

Bonsoir, there are many Jews all over the world (even in Israel) who make a conscious decision not to circumcise.

I have lived in the UK for over 12 years and my shul In London does not make any distinction either. So please do not make a blanket statement as it is simply not true.

Thanks, Dutchgirly. It may be a blanket statement to say that "the Dutch survivors stopped the practice". My family have married into a family of Dutch Jews, who certainly haven't.

It seems bizarre, anyway. "We've been persecuted by nazis, so let's stop doing it." A bit like blacks and Asian buying skin whitening cream so that racists bully them less.

I don't think anyone is disputing that some Jews don't circ their children. What I'm saying is that the vast majority do, and that people give it up as part of giving up the religion as a whole. Of your shul members who haven't performed a brit, how many keep kosher, for example, or take time off for shavuot?

sam why do you say 'brit'? I thought it was 'bris'? Or is it the same thing just spelled differently? ( curious not being a pedant :) )

To inform the people where it states that circumcision is needed, it is mentioned in the Book of J.

However in the original version of the Torah, circumcision is not even mentioned, nor is it to be found in the next 3 version that were copied. It is thought that men devised circumcision as a way to curb masturbation. Even Rabbi Maimonides acknowledged this fact.

Sam, lots of people in my Shul keep kosher, take time of for Shavuot and they do lots of great work in the community for its members and the outside community in the spirit of kindness, charity and Tikkun olam (making the world perfect)

SansaLannister, your examples of head covering and not serving meat to Hindus are irrelevant, as they do not involve cutting off part of a baby's genitals when not medically necessary. I know this thread is quite long. But it's been explained a lot of times now that for any comparison to be relevant, it needs to involve painfully removing a part of a child's body that won't grow back.

Sam G, that example is another that doesn't work. With racial prejudice against black and Asian people, the skin is the thing they are persecued for. Nazis did not persecute Jews because they were circumcised, or even because they were religiously observant. They gassed the secularised, not even particularly Jewish identified Jews too. Circumcision was not the reason for the persecution- I know it was sometimes used to identify Jews who were attempting to 'pass', but that's not the same thing. I'm sure you know this, so I don't know why you chose such an example. Also, any parents who you or anyone else ostracise because they haven't chosen to inflict suffering on their child are better off without your involvement.

Lastly, I'm still waiting for any of the pro male circ, anti FGM brigade to explain why pro-circ men's opinions convince them, but pro FGM women's don't. Let's not be hypocrites, ladies!

Valiumredhead - the "taf"at the end of the word is pronounced "t" in modern Hebrew, but "s" in Ashkenazi, or East European dialect. I use the former, but it's not something I get hot under the collar about, which seems to be a first on this thread :)

Thanks for explaining :)

Dutchygirl - I don't doubt that your shul is a renowned centre of torah, avodah, and gemilut hassadim. What I asked was whether there are members who keep kosher and festivals but not brit milah?

SamG, in short yes. There is an alternative ritual called Brit Shalom where the baby is named. It is a lovely ceremony for boy and girl babies.

samG i asked earlier in the thread but you didn't answer so i'll post again.

you said you did it to your babies as you thought it was a good idea and it was religiously mandated.

what specifically did you think was good about it and if you hadn't thought it a good idea but it was still religiously mandated would you still have gone ahead?

also, you admit that it isn't for the child you do it but for your own acceptance into a community that by your own admission has no right to punish you for non-compliance as you admitted that punishment was to be given by god. so you are following a rule that doesn't actually exist.i.e; you follow so as not to be punished by your shul. the actual rule is that god will punish you.

'I'llask my questions again.

Why does the Jewish faith require it's men to be circumcised?

There are cultures where to be accepted, girls have to undergo a clitoridectomy. Do the supporters of circumcision as a traditional and cultural act also support the rights of the parents of girls to perform fgm if their culture and traditions demand it?

HTSTB

yes, there are lots of things I find annoying, but I do because I feel obliged to. Eg, I often feel I would love a cheeseburger, but I feel the benefit of keeping kosher outweighs my immediately desire for junk food.

The britot were performed absolutely for the benefit of the children, and in fulfillment of the parents' obligation to do it. I don't see that the two are incompatible. I believe that God would punish me for not doing it, but my kids will look pretty silly as well in the meantime.

Supposing I could steal some money with the guarantee that no-one would ever find out. I wouldn't do it, because I would be eventually be judged for it. While my belief in God is obviously something I don't expect people to share, the belief that one will be so judged seems to me to have benefits.

Is that better?

seeker I don't think you are going to get an answer to that question. You've asked a number of times, as have I and no-ones answered.

Maybe they don't even know themselves.

Seeker and Methe, I will release you from your suffering. It is mentioned in the book of J (Genesis)

Genesis 17, The Lord appeared to Abraham when he was ninety-nine years old and made a covenant with him, agreeing that he would be the God of the Jews and the Jews would worship no other god but him.

?For Your part, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after your, generation by generation. This is how you shall keep my covenant between myself and your descendants after you: circumcise yourselves every male among you. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male among you in every generation shall be circumcised on the eighth day, both those born in your house and any foreigner, not of your blood but bought with your money. Circumcise both those born in your house and bought with your money.?(genesis 17:9-19)

This is what Sam is referring to, it is a convenant to God.

However, scholars have known for a long time that this passage was never in the original nor in 3 version that were copies of the original. It was added about 500 B.C., over one thousand years after the time of Abraham. Scholars David Rosenberg and Harold Bloom have published a full translation of the original version of Genesis, which dates from about 950 B.C. Here, Chapter 17 is conspicuously absent. All we read is that

?it was that day Yahweh cut a covenant with Abram:?I gave this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt to the great river, Euphrates?of the Kenite, and Kenizzite, the Kadmonite; of Hittite, the Perizzite, the Rephaim; of the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Girashite, the Jubisite(23)?

Does this answer your question? I did try to answer this in a post earlier but I realised maybe I was not clear enough.

samg what is the benefit for the children. and i dont mean, they will be accpted by their peers so will be happier. i mean what is the benefit of circumcision according to your faith? what is the religious benefit (not social)

Methe and Seeker - i think the answer has been given a number of times. There is a biblical and rabbincal obligation to do it in the book of Genesis, which is why we did it.

You ask whether I support the right of any parents to do anything for cultural reasons. No I don't. there's clearly a line to be drawn somewhere, but I think that a brit is on the right side of it while FGM is not.

Thank you. So all this fuss about one disputed reference!

And the question about FGM?

why is FGM not on the right side of the line?

"Methe and Seeker - i think the answer has been given a number of times. There is a biblical and rabbincal obligation to do it in the book of Genesis, which is why we did it. "

So do you do everything that the Old Testament tells you to do?