about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

Marsha - I meant a small part as in, it's one ceremony that takes one part of one day in the whole life of your child. The rest of their entire lives, and their parents, is taken up in other practices and rituals which don't involve any mutilation at all. So taken as time spent on that aspect of your faith, as opposed to time spent on, say, reading Torah, attending shul, eating kosher, lighting shabbat candles, eating Hanukkah doughnuts, etc, is minuscule. So I reckon people WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overthink how important it is. But that's just me.

But then, MarshaBrady - how can anyone capable of RATIONAL thought be able to argue that in the 21st Century that cutting off one of their baby's body parts is an integral and very important part of their religion?

Because I wouldn't continue to be a part of a religion that claimed cutting my dc's body parts off was integral to being part of that religion and very important. My DC matter MORE TO ME THAN ANY BLOODY RELIGION COULD OR WOULD EVER.

You are prepared to SACRIFICE ONE OF YOUR DC'S BODY PARTS to be a part of a religion. WTF?

I don't agree with circumcision Hunty. (I'm not Jewish in any case).

I know it's only one day, but it does sound like a way of saying (for some) you are either in or out. Of certain schools and communities in any case. And sounds very important in a way that other elements of the culture do not.

IME, circumcision remains one of the very last religious practices that Jews adhere to, even when they have abandoned all others.

I know of secular Jewish families who have not circumcised their sons; those sons have chosen, in adolescence or adulthood, to be circumcised, without adhering to any other religious ritual or practice.

Remember that Jews have a horrible recent history and that many of them feel deeply guilty when they abandon their religion altogether (as if they were abandoning their family who had suffered and perished). Circumcision is a way of maintaining affiliation to culture and history that is personal.

I definitely think some practices within faith are backward, I also think this of working men's clubs, lap dancing establishments and Masons.

OK, Marsha. But I would not want to be a part of ANY community that puts cutting bits off my baby as a condition of membership of that community.

In fact, if it was any other body part that was being asked to be cut off as part of membership to a community, there would be numerous arrests for child abuse.

If the female equivalent - cutting off the hood of the clitoris - was insisted upon as a condition of you being accepted into that community - arrests would be made for child abuse, and there would be a MASSIVE outcry. Why is it ANY different just because it is a part of a MALE baby's anatomy?

I wouldn't cut off the hood of my DD's clitoris to be accepted into a community, and I wouldn't cut off my DS's (I have 3) foreskins to be accepted into a community. It is one and the same IMO.

It's not objecting to circumcision that I'm calling anti-Semitic. It's labelling an entire faith stupid and backwards because some people who adhere to that faith still carry out a backwards and stupid very small part of that faith.

I do agree with AnnieL on the antisemitism aspect above. I'm not Jewish (am Catholic in case it is relevant) but have worked in Holocaust education for many years and am fairly well up on antisemitism, I hope. There is a difference between objecting to circumcision, which is one small aspect of the Jewish religion and objecting to the entire religion and everyone who practises it.

To call questioning circumcision "antisemitism" completely belittles true antisemitism and to make huge judgements on an entire religion because of one small aspect is a different ball game altogether.

HOW can anyone who is willing to cut off their son's foreskin comment that FGM is disgusting, as the OP has - and yet not SEE the irony and hypocrisy in complaining that her SIL has commented that MGM is disgusting?

GalaxyWeaver - being circumcised beyond babyhood is immensely physically distressing; it is a sign of the degree of psychological distress that not being circumcised entailed in those boys that they decided to go through the horror of later circumcision.

I think, in the circumstances, that I prefer baby boys to be circumcised when they don't notice and cannot remember and not go through the psychological and physical distress of later circumcision.

a baby being circumcised is put through immense disstress too! They feel pain aswell

Perhaps the fact that it has to be done before it can be remembered as it is too traumatic otherwise is an indication that it should not be done at all.

Also, it was THEIR chose to be circ but the baby has NO SAY! That is not fair. Wouldnt an adult having a painful operation done in the name of their religion hold more respect as they are truely showing their faith.

My husband was circumcised as an adult & it certainly wasn´t "horrific & distressing".

So maybe the boys Bonsoir refers to were too young or feeling pressured to comform?

How can you say that the baby 'doesn't notice', Bonsoir? Would your baby notice if you chopped it's earlobe off, without anaesthetic, in a non-sterile environment? Because I do believe the baby WOULD notice that. So why would it not notice that a different part of it's anatomy is chopped off?

And I doubt the uncircumcised adult males that CHOSE to be circumcised did so through psychological distress - more that they were making a choice to become circumcised in order to feel a sense of belonging to their community - after giving their INFORMED CONSENT to the procedure. And I'll bet you ANY money that they had their circumcisions carried out in a STERILE hospital environment under ANAESTHETIC.

Adult male getting circumcised - has given INFORMED CONSENT, has the operation carried out in a STERILE hospital environment, under ANAESTHETIC.

Infant male getting circumcised - is UNABLE to give INFORMED CONSENT, often has the operation carried out in a NON-STERILE front room or hall, WITHOUT ANAESTHETIC.

I'm thinking that the option for adult males sounds considerably less barbaric and cruel than the option for an infant male. Unless, of course, I am mistaken, and that in order to become a part of his community, the adult male has his circumcision carried out in exactly the same way that an infant male has to?

It wasn't about religion for me. :( The doctor told me to do it and I was so out of it and I agreed and now, whenever I see these threads, I wish I hadn't. :(

MarshaBrady and Bonsoir - after 738 or so posts, you've each hit the nail on the head. Thank you!

HCiaWH

"and I wouldn't cut off my DS's (I have 3) foreskins to be accepted into a community...."

Sounds the ideal position - you don't want us and we don't want you. We're not a proselytising religion. As it happens, I don't want to join Respect or the Worshipful Guild of Fishmongers, and they probably don't want me either, but I'm not especially bothered about it....

Sam WHY cant the circ wait til the boy is old enough to make an informed desion?
It is painful and distressing for a baby why put a baby through that? Why cant it wait?

Pompoko - because it is psychologically distressing for young Jewish boys not to be circumcised - they are not properly "in the club" - and it is psychologically distressing for Jewish teens to be cut off from their heritage and from acknowledging the immense pain of their ancestors.

Try talking to some Jews about it!

But why cut a boy out of your community because he still has his foreskin?
And again, why can it not wait til the boy is old enough? What if he doesnt want to be a jew?
If your religion loves learning and compassion for others, why not change things for the better and wait for all boys to choose to be circ?
It is physically and mentally disstressing for a baby to be circumcised. Is it ok simply because the baby wont remeber?

It is not the community cutting the child out - it is the child feeling he doesn't belong fully.

But if infant circ was stopped, and left til the boy was 16 years they would not know any different.

But that's not what happens. Or maybe you think you are in a position to rewrite and dictate Jewish lore?

Bonsoir, I do think that the child feeling like he does not belong fully because he is not circumcised is absolute nonsense.

A child is Jewish if his mother is Jewish, end of argument. It is the community judging a CHILD for not being circumcised that will make the child feel unwelcome, not the other way around.

Acknowledging the immense pain of their ancestors can be done in far more constructive and effective ways such as educating people on prejudice, ignorance and racism.

For your information, many Jewish boys in the Netherlands are not circumcised. The reason is that during the second world war, Jewish boys were identified by the SS in schools by forcing the children to drop their trousers. So the survivors stopped the practise. If any Jewish community would judge them for this decision, all I can say is shame on you.