about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

Or maybe the problem is that faith cannot be explained the same way as a geometry IYSWIM(although I find SamG76 Thu 27-Oct-11 11:54:56's post explanatory enough).

If when asked a question you knew that whatever your answer was the comments coming back to you were going to be that you are:

Irrational
disgusting
backward
child abusers
moorons

would you really take time to answer and talk about your personal beliefs?

The reason we are not answering in any more detail is not that we do not know why it is because we know it will not change your already made opinions that we are monsters of some sort. There is absolutely no point in answering that question as you do not actually care about the answer.

Thanks DutchGirly for explaining it all.

I think as with everything that people are scared of change, seeing it as somehow losing their identity, feeling of belonging.

I find it sad to read Sam that you don't know whether or not you would shun a family that decided against circumcision.

ghoulionine the issue isn't your own personal beliefs. It is why and how these beliefs enroach upon the rights of other human beings.

Thankyou, I appreciate you answering but I still dont get what purpose circumcision serves or how it originated. I cannot fathom looking at a newborn and thinking 'No that just will not do' and then chopping a bit off to suit, or believing in God but believing that his most brilliant creation is fundamentally flawed and that a normal penis looks "silly".

That passage talks of buying people, do jews condone that too?

Methe I think sadly slavery was acceptable in all religions whether Muslim, Christian or Jewish at that time.

I repeats- do you do everything the Old Testament tells you to do?

Oh absolutly, but thankfully, most people have moved with the times and realised it is a barbaric practice.

seeker - i replied to the old and very boring question about stoning children, fornication, etc, about 300 posts ago....

Methe - I can assure you that outisde the cosy MN world, the vast majority of Jews and Muslims keep the practice going very happily, thanks....

Oh for goodness sake it's can't be justified by religion because it was invented loooooong before the Jews and Muslims were made up. And all of the other practices that have evolved through time, also part of culture at the time, you have to wonder why circumcision has be held on to. Cherry picking, probably because it involves weak and vulnerable members of society, just like most of the crap heaped onto women.

"the issue isn't your own personal beliefs"

IMH it is as the only reason I have is a religious one,one of faith. If in your opinion it is barbaric, so be it! In mine it is an act of faith and love and I cannot explain it any more than people have already done.

See questions like seekers "so you do everything the Old Testament tells you to do?" are not here to enhance the debate they are here so that someone can answer "yes indeed I do because I believe it is the right thing to follow something ordered by God" and be a laughing stock because obviously it is so backward and not fashionable. If Isomeone was criticising you because you did not circumcised your DS (I do not even know if you have one but it matters little) adding that you are a terrible parent if you did not because you are dooming your child and preparing him for an eternal stay in hell fire, would you want to discuss your reasons with them? Really? or would you decide it is not worth it because it is a point scoring thing, not an actual discussion.

'Methe - I can assure you that outisde the cosy MN world, the vast majority of Jews and Muslims keep the practice going very happily, thanks....'

Happily or because they get shunned from their communities otherwise?

samG this issue isn't just debated on the 'cosy MN world' as you put it. I have come across it on many forums and in the community in general.

OK. Shame people won't debate this properly.

ghoulionine I didn't use the word barbaric. However I do believe that in the UK each child is a human being, with equal human rights, irrespective of which community, religion or culture his/her family belongs to. Deciding whether to have an intact penis or not [as an adult ie informed consent] is a human right. I don't think a parents religious beliefs should be allowed to override that right, ever.

yes indeed, ti's written in Genesis that boys must be circumised. Exodus 21:7 expressly allows us to sell our daugthers to slavery, so I assume this is also strictly followed. So how much do you get for one nowadays?

ghoul. Have you never truly questioned why, out of all the rules given by God, that circumcision is one everyone [ish] of particular faiths go along with. Do you think they would if the child could speak? Or if it was wedding night beatings? Do you think it's partly because it's an infant's penis or an influenced/coerced child? Do you think that because it's hidden and not discussed in RL by people that don't have to decide whether to or not and to cut a boy's penis (therefore boys grow into men and aren't allowed to admit weakness, especially in the three cultures where it's rife ,white USA, Islam, Judaism. All cultures where 'men' are expected to be strong providing men and to admit weakness takes away masculinity) that it's something people don't challenge?

Have you never actually questioned what God asks of you?
Have you really never thought about whether or not it's the right thing to do for your son, over and above what's right for your God?
I am seriously surprised that people are such sheep.

Hazlenutt - here's a hint:"allows" means permits - there's no obligation to do it, and it is rabinically forbidden. Brit milah is an obligation, with an unusually harsh punishment attached for disregarding it, in the text. That's why I did do a brit, but don't know the current bride price, though I'm hoping to find out in time to offer DD for sale at the Beersheva cattle market when we next visit.

NB to the gormless (who seem to be well represented on this thread): the previous line was not meant seriously!

PoP - actually, I try to keep the commandments and most of the other rules. It's not just brit milah, though obviously that's a biggie. And if I were a Rawlsian baby, I think I'd be quite happy to discover I was Jewish. I don't see the Jewish community as economically deprived or isolated, or punching below its weight in important areas. By contrast, studies seem to show that kids in the UK have more rights than almost anywhere else in the world, but are the most miserable as well. But apparently, according to one poster, the Jews and Muslims are the ones who have to have things hammered home to us!

This is a serious question. Do you never question why God asks particular things of you? I always thought of Judahism as a particularly questioning and intellectual faith- in would expect blind obedience from Christians, but not Jews!

Ok Sam, if it's about obligations, do you then:

Put to death anybody working during Sabbath? (exodus 35:2)
Burn to death a man who marries his mother-in-law? (Leviticus 20:14)
Kill homosexuals and adulterers (levi 20:10 and 20:13)?

as levi 20:8 states that "Keep all my decrees by putting them into practice"! This is a clear obligation.

or are those commands outdated and barbaric?

Seeker - we don't have a priesthood any more, and no hierarchy. There's no pope to tell us the correct answers, nor any priest to absolve us. If we want to know the answer to a question, the books are available and many of us are educated enough to work it out ourselves. We are required to choose a rabbi to help us, but subject to that it's between us and God; BUT

We are not entitled to second guess God. I've no idea why we can't eat oysters, or squirrels for that matter, but we can't. If I decide unilaterally that it's ok to eat seafood becasue we have fridges, or that we can eat squirrels because they are a pest, then I'm essentially creating my own religion. This is problematic for us, because if I serve prawns then others won't eat in my house (a problem in a religion where eating and hosting dinners is important!). Being part of a community therefore means that you accept certain norms for the good of the community (and I'm not including brit milah, which I would accept anyway).

Always amazes me that people love to go for the negatives in any discussion in any religion, regardless of whether they know something about said religion or not. What happened to having an enquiring mind and religious tolerance (or what I would describe as religious intolerance nowadays)?

HuntyCatInaWitchyHat

I am NOT anti-semetic, or Anti-Muslim - I an ANTI UNNECESSARY GENITAL MUTILATION. Does it make me anti-American because I am against circumcision? Or does it make me ANTI-CIRCUMCISION??!!

I'm quite sure you can be a 'good' Jewish person, or a 'good' Muslim, or a 'good' American, or a 'good' Canadian WITHOUT cutting bits off your baby.

Non-medical circumcision (MGM) IS a backwards, archaic, barbaric, cruel DISGUSTING practice that should be made illegal just as FGM and docking dogs' tails or ears is.

If people won't accept you for not mutilating your baby - then FFS find people that WILL. There's enough of us out here!

Would you be kind and accepting of someone who had cut off their baby's finger? No? Then why would you want friends or a community that is ONLY willing to be kind and accepting of you if you cut off your baby's foreskin?

I am struggling to understand the difference?

If it is because it is something you have always done - does that make it right? If someone's grandparents, and someone's grandparents grandparents had always sexually abused their dc - would that make it right just because it had been going on for generations? NO. If someone's grandparents and someone's grandparents grandparents had always cut a bit off their baby - does that make it right just because it has been going on for generations? NO.

It is the 21st Century, and no-one capable of RATIONAL thought can possibly argue that cutting a bit off their baby for a non-medical reason is sane, or right, or non-abusive.

So well put!

AnnieLobeseder Marsha - I meant a small part as in, it's one ceremony that takes one part of one day in the whole life of your child. The rest of their entire lives, and their parents, is taken up in other practices and rituals which don't involve any mutilation at all.

Oh how lucky! Only mutilated for part of a day!

So I reckon people WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overthink how important it is. But that's just me.

Yes mutilation really isn't a biggy . . . WTF?!

Sam- do you not wonder why God asks you to circumcise your male children?