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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
SansaLannister · 27/10/2011 03:09

You have another opinion, you must be an ignorant moron. Lovely!

Carry on!

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 27/10/2011 03:12

Well don't act like one then. Antisemitism is nothing to do with one's feelings about circumcision and if you think it is then yes, you need to read up on it.

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 27/10/2011 03:14

Oh and while we're at it, moron is a really outdated and offensive term. But I'm sure others will point that out to you in the morning

GColdtimer · 27/10/2011 04:27

Sans how dare you call me and others who protest about this procedure anti-semetic. Even other jews on this thread are against it. And charming as your story was I am struggling to see the relevance. Covering your head and not serving certain food groups is not comparable to supporting the mutilation of a child. If you married into a faith that required a woman to sever her own earlobe or perform fgm on their daughter would you do that too out of some misguided concept of what it means to respect religion?

AnnieLobeseder · 27/10/2011 07:33

Wow, OP, superior much? Well, since you and the folk in your shul are so much better Jews than 'my lot', I shall bow out of this thread.

But let me first ask you if you've actually spoken to your rabbi, the school head and other members of your lovely inclusive community ad to whether your DS would really be shunned or are you making assumptions at his expense?

DutchGirly · 27/10/2011 07:42

By contrast, karet is a punishment visited by God on the individual.

So your community is judging you as God? You have just said it is punishment given out by God, however in this case it would be community punishing you and your children.

As you say, no-one really knows what it is, but it's pretty serious, and it's not dependent on the existence of a theocratic state.

Luckily we do not live in a theocratic state but nevertheless these are punishments mentioned in the Torah. However as intelligent, educated people we decided that these punishments are barbaric and primitive.

So why is it that your community is able to make this distinction but not on other parts? And why would they judge you for not having a traditional Bris and how can your community reconcile this with V'ahavta l'rayaha kamokha (Love of others), ilut hasadim (Kindness/compassion) and Talmud torah (Love of learning)?

Malificence · 27/10/2011 07:56

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm anti any stupid and backward religion that has the mutilation of babies at the core of it's "faith".

AnnieLobeseder · 27/10/2011 08:30

Ah, now, those of you who were saying this thread was anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim. It wasn't before - it was just people discussing how circumcision should be questioned within those faiths.

But now Malificence is here with a proper anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim post. Apparently we're stupid and backwards.

See the difference?

Thanks for clearing that up, Malificence.

Hmm
GalloweesG · 27/10/2011 08:38

I think we are entitled to question the validity of anything that hasn't evolved properly. Plenty, in fact the majority of British Catholics use contraception but because the Vatican refuses to budge on its stance. It appears to be very backward.

WhoseGotMyEyebrows · 27/10/2011 08:53

I think it is perfectly reasonable to call a religion which insists on the multilation of babies any bloody name you want! Stupid and backwards is pretty mild considering!

seeker · 27/10/2011 08:55

ah, no. You aren't stupid and backward. The practice of infant circumcision is. Therefore any religion which demands it obviously has stupid and backward elements to it. As well as intelligent and progressive elements. Nothing anti Semitic in that. Although there are those who will say it is. Good smoke screen, that.

AnnieLobeseder · 27/10/2011 09:03

Ah, but you see, I am Jewish, you are calling my religion stupid and backwards. I object to that and find it offensive. I agree with you that the practice of circumcision is stupid and backwards. But I'm afraid you are being anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim by calling my entire religion stupid and backwards.

WhoseGotMyEyebrows · 27/10/2011 09:07

All I can think about is those poor little babies . . . having bits chopped off of them. Sad They have no choice. They trust their parents to make those choices for them. How can any parent think it's an ok thing to do? I don't much like seeing babies with their ears pierced as it's unnecessary but at least that's just a little hole . . . cutting off part of a childs penis because you follow some "religion" which tells you to do so . . . I honestly wonder at the intelligence of people sometimes. It's because of things like this that I dislike religion so much. It seems to target those with weak minds and uses it's name to commit horrible acts. Not just this but all through history . . .

WhoseGotMyEyebrows · 27/10/2011 09:09

AnnieLobeseder Nope the smoke screen isn't going to work. Shouting anti-semitism won't disguise the evil act.

pigletmania · 27/10/2011 09:10

My goodness sensa we are anti semetic because we don't agree with circumcision! We don't agree on it be it Jewish Christian or Muslim unless for medical reasons. FYI there are s few Jewish people who do not believe in it, does that make them anti semetic Hmm

SharrieTBGinzatome · 27/10/2011 09:13

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AnnieLobeseder · 27/10/2011 09:14

seeker - Are you missing my point? Or has the smoke got in your eyes?

Circumcision, as you say, is an evil act. On this we are agreed.

It's not objecting to circumcision that I'm calling anti-Semitic. It's labelling an entire faith stupid and backwards because some people who adhere to that faith still carry out a backwards and stupid very small part of that faith.

You may call it semantics but it's important to me.

SharrieTBGinzatome · 27/10/2011 09:15

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CardyMow · 27/10/2011 09:15

I am NOT anti-semetic, or Anti-Muslim - I an ANTI UNNECESSARY GENITAL MUTILATION. Does it make me anti-American because I am against circumcision? Or does it make me ANTI-CIRCUMCISION??!!

I'm quite sure you can be a 'good' Jewish person, or a 'good' Muslim, or a 'good' American, or a 'good' Canadian WITHOUT cutting bits off your baby.

Non-medical circumcision (MGM) IS a backwards, archaic, barbaric, cruel DISGUSTING practice that should be made illegal just as FGM and docking dogs' tails or ears is.

If people won't accept you for not mutilating your baby - then FFS find people that WILL. There's enough of us out here!

Would you be kind and accepting of someone who had cut off their baby's finger? No? Then why would you want friends or a community that is ONLY willing to be kind and accepting of you if you cut off your baby's foreskin?

I am struggling to understand the difference?

If it is because it is something you have always done - does that make it right? If someone's grandparents, and someone's grandparents grandparents had always sexually abused their dc - would that make it right just because it had been going on for generations? NO. If someone's grandparents and someone's grandparents grandparents had always cut a bit off their baby - does that make it right just because it has been going on for generations? NO.

It is the 21st Century, and no-one capable of RATIONAL thought can possibly argue that cutting a bit off their baby for a non-medical reason is sane, or right, or non-abusive.

SharrieTBGinzatome · 27/10/2011 09:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MarshaBrady · 27/10/2011 09:17

I know you are saying it is a small part of the faith Annie.

For many Jewish people it is not a small part of that faith, it is integral and very important.

AnnieLobeseder · 27/10/2011 09:17

Have you not had your coffee yet, Sharrie?! Grin

GalloweesG · 27/10/2011 09:18

At the core of all religion there appears to be a huge resistance to progress and change, I wonder if this is because the powers that be know they belong in the past and there is no place in a modern society for a set of made up rules that appear to be without much foundation once the surface is scratched.

whatacrapstressfulday · 27/10/2011 09:18

Sorry, total on your SIL's side here, totally disagree with what you are doing to your tiny baby.

pigletmania · 27/10/2011 09:20

There are aspects of every faith I don't believe in, be it Christian, Jewish or Muslim, I feel that it fine to challenge religion does not make it bad or wrong