about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

The brainwashing from the religious sector is apparent. You've been duped people, and had the ability to question anything removed.

Which is why it's impossible to debate coherently with the Watchtower witnesses, they are only aware of there own superiority and view points.

Ask more, learn more.

SamG - So you were delighted when you CUT OF A PART OF YOUR NEWBORN BABY IN A NON-STERILE FRONT ROOM in order to be part of a thriving community, with a large number of excellent schools and a "big society" approach that the PM could only dream of....

Are you for FUCKING REAL? We ALL want our dc to attend good schools and become part of a thriving community BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THEIR FUCKING BODY PARTS.

*Off.

If the Secondary School you wanted your child to attend because it had excellent GCSE and A-Level results had a condition on admission that all attendees had to have their non-dominant hand cut off or they couldn't attend - would you send your child there?!

Oh and I wish there was a like button for dutchy's last post.

OP, I'm Jewish and I wouldn't attend a bris because the practice disgusts me. Why on earth are you getting offended that your SIL objects to mutilating small children for 'cultural' reasons? Why should be abandon her morals for your outdated beliefs?

And as for your shul and community shunning you if you didn't do it - you need to find a nicer and more inclusive community. I can assure that at my shul, they don't care in the slightest about the state of the male's penises.

SamG: My ds is lucky enough to attend a very good school, where he has many Muslim classmates, the vast majority of whom I'd assume are circumcised, which he is not.

As if the mutilation wasn't bad enough in itself, you think it's acceptable to segregate small children for education depending on whether or not this has been done to them, entirely without their consent?

I don't get the mentality that can reason 'It's OK to cut bits off tiny babies for no medical reason' , never mind '& if someone else doesn't do it to their boys, those boys can't go to school with their cousins & friends'.

You don't ever think: Actually, this is all a bit nuts...?

Sam, I do know about Karet and there are several thoughts about this. It would help if was known what Karet actually means. Mis translations from the original version are surprisingly common. Furthermore the Rabbi's still cannot decide when the punishment should take place ie the circumcision can still take place whilst the person is alive, or when he reaches adulthood etc.

The penalty delineated in Genesis 17:14 for failing to be circumcised is karet, being cut off from the Jewish people. No-one is quite sure what this means early death, some sort of divine retribution, denial of entry to the afterlife but it is understood to be extremely serious, in fact the most severe punishment in the Torah.

If your community does follow the Torah to the letter, can you please enlighten me how your community kills any members who commit the following acts? Is it by lethal injection, hanging, beheading or death squad?

Adultery (Lev. 20:10).
Fornication - if you?re female (Deut 22:21).
Homosexuality (Lev. 20:13).
Blasphemy (Lev. 24:16)
Insulting one?s parents (Exod. 21:17)
Disobeying one?s parents (Deut 21:18-21

Other practices sanctioned by the Torah that we no longer find acceptable as we are educated are:

Slavery (Exod 21:1-11) (Deut. 15:12-18)
Animal and Human Sacrifices (Lev. 4:3, 4:23, 4:32, 5:7, 5:15; Judges 11:20, 11:33)
Divorce for men only (Deut 24:1)
Female subservience to men including obedience to every order and no right to refuse sex, (Genesis 3:16).

I sincerely hope that noone at my childrens' schools would know whether they're circumcised or not.

AnnieLobeseder - That's so reassuring to hear. I very much "like" your posts.

Annie, at the shul I attend they don't care about the state of the penises either (I have a mental image of Sam shul with the Rabbi at the entrance checking every penis to see if they are circumcised 'You are either in or out')

They welcome non-Jewish partners into the community too which is a nice touch.

RavenAK - Because we are talking about the real world, and not MN world, parents who are practising Jews have a brit for their sons. It's a Jewish school, and accordingly the children who attend will have gone through it. AL's synagogue may be full of people who keep kosher, keep shabbat, but don't bother with a brit, but it's not something I've ever come across.

DutchyGirl - I don't believe that all the acts you mention were ever punishable - the rabbis made it clear that, eg, offences relating to parents could never actually be prosecuted. But the difference is that those acts were only ever punishable by a theocratic state, which we (fortunately, in my view) don't have. By contrast, karet is a punishment visited by God on the individual. As you say, no-one really knows what it is, but it's pretty serious, and it's not dependent on the existence of a theocratic state.

Also, I don't believe I did say our commnuity keeps the Torah to the letter, (which in any case no-one would ever do). In fact, we are well known as one of the most liberal (small "l", as we wouldn't want to be confused with AL's lot) shuls in the area.

So we are getting to the crux of the matter here.

Those to choose to mutilate their sons as newborns do it to be part of a warm, loving thriving community which they would be shunned from by these warm, kind intelligent folk if they decided not to partake in this barbaric practise.

Wow. Even the most bizarre cults don't ask their followers to hurt their own babies to " belong".

Samg you seem to have missed my question. Would you also shun a boy who had not been circumcised?

Yabu. It is disgusting to mutilate babies.

Sorry, Twofalls, I missed your reasonable question. Certainly not the boy - it's not his fault. The parents, maybe, depending obviously on the circumstances, but it's all theoretical as I don't really know anyone sufficiently detached from Judaism to be in that situation - sorry!

'RavenAK - Because we are talking about the real world'.

Well, your corner of it, maybe. My world's quite real too, & no-one's ever asked me to mutilate my children as a condition of belonging to it.

So would you do it if you didn't face ostracism etc?

& if they changed the rules & wanted an earlobe too, you'd accede to that?

Your tone does suggest that you're not fully comfortable with the bris as a condition of belonging, unless I'm reading something into it which isn't there. Would you prefer to have free choice?

But duchy and Annie and others on this thread seem to be very in touch with their faith and don't circ. Presumably they would be shunned by your community.

So can you tell me exactly why this is done. Have only ever seen "it's because it's what we do" type answers on these threads

Lovely! After 7 years here, nothing like a bris thread to bring out the anti-Semites and anti-Islam posters! Good we all know who they are! Band away.

ETA: I'm a Christian, a Roman Catholic even. Honestly have no opinion either way my son is not circumcised, nor is my husband. But then, we have not a strong faith prescribing such. My husband is a Protestant.

And you're also a little bit strange and have no idea what antisemitism is. Go and read up about it before you throw ignorant labels about.

Oh, as a Latina, I had my ears pierced before my baptism.

I had a serious relationship with a Jewish man, indeed, we considered marriage at one point, but the timing was wrong, he was younger than I was, but I had no problem agreeing bris for any son we had, though my own father is not circumcised. It was an integral part of his faith.

I went on after our breakup, as a married woman to a Christian man as I am Christian, too, to have a deep friendship with a Muslim woman. It was only after our conversations then I learned devout Muslim men are also circumcised, and she revealed her husband was circumcised, she would not speak about certain things with unmarried women or women who have not born children and still won't. I would not betray such a confidence before her husband or indeed when I go to see her I cover my hair, the same way I do before the husbands or males about my Orthodox Jewish friends. It is a mark of respect for their beliefs, though my hair is short and grey. I have Hindu friends, well, you don't serve them up meat.

Far be it from me to stand in judgement of her life, her husband's life and their choices, tbh.

Live and let live, IMO.

Oh, lovely, you assume I need to google anti-semitism like I'm some moron. What a lovely thread! NOT.