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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
PosiesOfPoison · 26/10/2011 21:14

WelliesinJune Wed 26-Oct-11 19:59:27
Actually it is becoming more popular in the US, as it is more hygienic. You don't need a foreskin, like you don't need tonsils.

this is untrue, it is declining in the US.

onagar · 26/10/2011 21:14

I bet their report doesn't say "do it at home without an anaesthetic to please god and invite friends and neighbours round to watch"

pumpkincarver · 26/10/2011 21:18

completely agree with Malificence and pigletmania.
OP: YABU, please reconsider and give your DS the choice to do whatever he wants with HIS willy. Remember it's his, not yours.

SamG76 · 26/10/2011 21:19

Xenia - Circ has been banned in the past by such human rights advocates as Hitler and Stalin. Perhaps you could propose a ban in the virtual MN world.
Various studies have shown the Jewish community to be the best educated and most successful ethnic group in the country. If only a small proportion was driven out, I think the UK would suffer more than them.

Crunchbag - I'm delighted that you think that someone wouldn't be ostracised for not having a brit. I can assure you that in my community (which isn't especially religious), one would be. At the very least, we would have to find a different synagogue, a new group of friends, and a new school for our kids. I don't think anyone outside the MN world would think of themselves as a practising Jew without performing a brit on their DS, so the issue would be very unlikely to arise....

4madboys · 26/10/2011 21:22

read the first 15 pages then skipped to the end i say GOOD ON YOUR SIL!! she said what she thought and i would have done the same!

mother of four boys, none circumsised, one nearly had to be for MEDICAL reasons but thankfully the issue resovled :)

i really think that circumsicion should NOT be done except for in cases of medical need, to do it for reasons fo tradition, religion, culture is wrong imo, over time humanity has done lots of things for these reasons and then STOPPED doing so when we realised there was no need and it was wrong!

have you actually googled properly and had a look at what can go wrong, even when done by a medical professional there can be comlications, there is no way i would risk that in a million years unless it was medically necessary.

onagar · 26/10/2011 21:25

I took a look at the AAP to see what they did say - though I live in the UK where the NHS doesn't support it.

"There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and physiologic stress. Neonatal physiologic responses to circumcision pain include changes in heart rate, blood pressure, oxygen saturation, and cortisol levels"

"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child"

See, it doesn't say anything about cutting bits off to please god or to increase your standing with the church.

onagar · 26/10/2011 21:27

For those who missed it.

NHS Website

During the 19th century, many medical practitioners believed that being circumcised was more hygienic than not being circumcised.

As a result, the routine medical circumcision of all boys, regardless of religious faith, became a widespread practice in England. However, routine male circumcision gradually became less common as many members of the medical community began to argue that it had no real medical benefit in the vast majority of cases.

Routine circumcision may offer a number of potential benefits, such as reducing the risk of some types of infections. However, the majority of healthcare professionals now agree that the risks associated with routine circumcision, such as infection and excessive bleeding, far outweigh any potential benefits.

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 26/10/2011 21:27

I'm delighted that you think that someone wouldn't be ostracised for not having a brit. I can assure you that in my community (which isn't especially religious), one would be. At the very least, we would have to find a different synagogue, a new group of friends, and a new school for our kids.

That all sounds like a perfect reason to do exactly that. Why on earth would you want to live your life by the rules of people like that? Nothing will ever change as long as people behave like sheep.

benandhollyandgaston · 26/10/2011 21:28

"I'm delighted that you think that someone wouldn't be ostracised for not having a brit. I can assure you that in my community (which isn't especially religious), one would be"

What a lovely, inclusive religion you partake in.

Presumably you also tell your DC to bow to whatever peer pressure dictates that they do, regardless of the morality of such actions?

crunchbag · 26/10/2011 21:33

SamG76 I guess it was wishful thinking then.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 26/10/2011 21:34

"I'm delighted that you think that someone wouldn't be ostracised for not having a brit. I can assure you that in my community (which isn't especially religious), one would be. At the very least, we would have to find a different synagogue, a new group of friends, and a new school for our kids."

so this warm welcoming community are extremely fickle then and will turn their back on their own friends and family for refusing to harm their own baby? doesn't sound like a community that value their members very highly.

DutchGirly · 26/10/2011 21:35

SamG

I am absolutely shocked to hear that you would have to find a different synagogue, a new group of friends and a new school if a child was not to be circumcised, in fact I do not believe this to be the case and I am Jewish. If that is the case, I am very sad. I for one would not want to be part of a synagogue , group of friend and the school who would judge me and my child for making that choice as I hate bigotry. I would love having a debate how this behaviour contradicts the most important elements of Judaism.

It schmacks of small-mindedness, prejudice and ignorance, not characteristics of 'the best educated and most succesfull ethic group in the world.' I am friends with Orthodox and Reformed and people who eat pork, shellfish are not ostracised so why would an uncircumcised child be? What is the child cannot be circumcised for medical reasons, are they going to be rejected as well? How would they know if a child was not circumcised anyway, do they check the penis of your children?

breatheslowly · 26/10/2011 21:36

Sam - have you heard of Godwin's Law?

I promise you that there is a wider community out there which is great to be part of and won't ask after the state of your DS's penis. I wouldn't want to be part of a community that pressured me into harming my own child.

breatheslowly · 26/10/2011 21:39

Not to mention buying your membership of the community by making a sacrifice from your child.

DutchGirly · 26/10/2011 21:42

And Sam, mentioning Hitler and Stalin is in extremely bad taste.

My Jewish grandmother who was in the Dutch Jewish Resistance would have given you a mighty slap for saying that.

CardyMow · 26/10/2011 21:47

SamG - So you think having to find a church that DOESN'T place conditions on your membership is a hardship? So you think having to make new friends who DON'T place conditions on your friendship is a hardship? So you think having to find new schools for your dc is a hardship? EVEN WHEN THE CONDITION IS MUTILATING YOUR BABY?

And anyway - it CANNOT be legal in the UK to be kicked out of a school for not having cut bits off your child - I'm fairly certain THAT could be challenged in the European Court of Human Rights.

Are you telling me that you mutilated your baby so that you didn't have to find a new church, a new set of friends and new schools for your dc? You put YOUR needs for stability above the need of your baby not to HAVE BITS CHOPPED OFF IT WITHOUT ANAEASTHETIC. Are you FUCKING SERIOUS.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCKITY FUCKITY FUCK.

I don't think I can even form a coherent sentence after reading that...

SamG76 · 26/10/2011 22:07

DG - I'm surprised your g/m got through the war without mentioning Stalin or Hitler! The point I'm making is that Jews are generally quite cynical about people hammering points home to us or lecturing us on human rights, for our own good, of course.

as I said about 25 pages ago, the penalty for not having a brit for one's child is especially severe, which is why it is different from eating dodgy burgers. Of course, as you seem to be your shul debating champion I don't need to explain the concept of "karet" to you, but for the benefit of others it means essentially being cut off (so to speak) from one's people. It is one of only 2 "offences" for which this is prescribed.

As for how would anyone know, they would expect to be told about the brit. We had 100 or so in our front room. But suppose we sneakily pretended that we'd done it quietly? How long could we keep up the pretence? My kids are always taking their clothes off. And what would happen when he went to school?

If there's a medical condition there's no hiyuv to perform a brit, so it would be understood. There is at least one boy in that situation, and the family are respected members of the community. That can't be compared to simply not bothering.....

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 26/10/2011 22:11

why would you want to be part of a community that would shun you for not hurting your child?

and also, what is the reason for removing the foreskin and why must it be done in infancy rather than at an age when the owner of said foreskin can decide for himself?

DeadFromTheNeckUp · 26/10/2011 22:14

hereisthescarythingbooyhoo - I wonder how many young men would consent to this procedure once they have reached the age of reason? My guess would be none.

SamG76 · 26/10/2011 22:17

HCWIAWH

Thanks for that little rant! You weren't very coherent even before my previous post.

You seem to think we were pressured into it. Not at all - we did it because it thought it was a good idea, and it is religiously mandated. Neither of us regret it in the slightest. We are delighted that our kids are part of a thriving community, with a large number of excellent schools and a "big society" approach that the PM could only dream of....

whostolemyname · 26/10/2011 22:23

YABU. I admire your SIL for having the courage to say what she believes.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 26/10/2011 22:24

sam what specifically about MGM did you think was a good idea and if you hadn't thought it a good idea but it was still religiously mandated would you have gone ahead still?

pigletmania · 26/10/2011 22:27

You hit the nail on the head HeresTheScarey that is not a community that I would want to be a part of.

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 26/10/2011 22:29

You were robbed. My dd is part of a close community with great schools and a thriving big society and I didn't have to chop any bits off her at all. It's great!

GColdtimer · 26/10/2011 22:33

So sam would you also shun someone if they decided against doing this to their child?

Earlier on you called those of us who were disgusted with this procedure gullible. I said at the time it was ironic you thought we were the gullible ones