about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

i too think it is bulshit that these babies don't feel pain - why don't you find a friend who hasn't had it done and try on him see if he feels pain or bleeds ffs.

Better still go for female circumcision and see if it bloody hurts you, if it does imagine what a small infant would feel!!!!!!!!

It's done with anaesthetic whe done for medical purposes for a reason. Sometimes even with general anaesthetic. Of course cutting something hurts, even paper cuts hurt and circumcision takes a lot longer to heal than those.

When I was pregnant and I did not know whether it was a boy or a girl, I had the most dreadful arguments with my partner.

He used all the excuses in the book ie he won't feel Jewish, he will look different from other boys, he won't look like me etc. I told him that if every single adult present during the Bris would consent to have a tiny bit of their left earlobe cut off (after all you don't need it) without anaesthetic I might consider it. 'But that would hurt' well that is exactly the point is it?

There is a lot of pressure put on the parents though, so I can understand why parents give in. I think it is worse for the mother as you're tired, hormonal, maybe even loss of blood 8 days after giving birth.

I had to fight every single member of his family over it (until we discovered it was a girl) but I did tell them that I would not consent to the procedure and if it was carried out, that I would have the person who performed the surgery arrested. I felt that strongly about it.

Probably presenting slightly biased view as both my husband and i are Jewish, that said....when our first son was born i really didn't want him to be circumsised, my husband, brothers, father and grandfathers assured me that they had no regrets. This is a practise that has been going on for centuries, it's part of a heritage and religion that is steeped in tradition. In our modern age this may seem barbaric but it is a small part of linking a jewish boy with his community. My son is now 20, he also has no regrets, if he did i would question our decision 20 years ago.

My partner is Jewish and I posted on here whilst pregnant re circumcision. There were similar posts in reply re mutilation of babies etc. It is a controversial topic however it is part of the religion (which I have come to find a wonderfully warm and welcoming one). Nowadays it may be done in hospitals with anesthetic and it is no different to piercing a child's ears. The religion is not going to change, and although I am atheist, I am in awe of the love and warmth of closeness of Jewish families, held together in part at least by certain rituals and beliefs. I am not saying I would agree to it if we had a boy next time. I am saying that condemning it as mutilation is failing to understand the intricacies and history of the Jewish faith. As I said, a complicated topic. In answer to the OP's original query, I am afraid YABU by expecting them to come. My parents wholeheartedly disagree with it, let alone expecting them to attend the ceremony. They shouldn't be expected to come just because they have married into a Jewish family. What about your family, should they be expected not to have a bris because they have married into a non-Jewish family. I think just go ahead with it if that is your beliefs, don't listen to anyone on here, you are his mother and must do what you think is right. If you do it under anesthetic, feeling part of a loving religion and like you are not "different" to your family is a feeling and value that you cannot underestimate. However just note the majority of the public/people of Mumsnet may not have this in their lives, and therefore will not understand.

I've been thinking and there have been posts here saying that it is necessary as the child may be rejected from the Jewish society otherwise. This sounds like peer pressure to me. Teens are told to not give in to pressure from others to smoke, have sex etc. How is that any different to people feeling they have to circumcise to be part of the community?

I'm sorry - but just because something has been practised for many years DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

I will always see things the way DutchGirly does - And DutchGirly - I applaud you for making a stand against this archaic practice. Now if only ALL parents could think like that, and make a stand on behalf of their sons, I would be happy.

Are my DS's any less accepted by their family because I didn't CHOP part of them off when they were tiny? NO. And if their family DID shun them, or not accept them - then they wouldn't be WORTH having as family - if their love was conditional. A family's love for the children in that family should NEVER be conditional on ANYTHING - much less that their love and acceptance rests on the child being MUTILATED.

And for those of you saying that one incident of chopping a part off a baby does not make a person a child abuser - would you REALLY say the same thing if someone chopped their ear or finger off without anaesthetic? Because I'm QUITE sure you would be yelling Child abuse then. Why is it any different that the body part is a foreskin, rather than an ear or a finger?

I JUST CANNOT get my head around the Hypocrisy of people who claim that it is ANY different - and I never will be able to. FFS are you all fucking sheep - let's mutilate our baby because everyone else has. Have you no mind of your own??

'it is a small part of linking a jewish boy with his community' So what about girls then? Are they not linked with their community?

'feeling part of a loving community' I am sure that would still be the case for uncircumcised boys otherwise it wouldn't be much of a loving community.

And still no one can really give a proper explanation why boys are being circumcised.

They won't be rejected. But it is like being c of e and not christened [insert your own example here]. Region by definition is about a group of people holding certain beliefs and performing certain historical rituals.

It seems that there has been a lot more awareness about FGM since people stopped calling it female circumcision and started calling it female genital mutilation.

If the standard term for this procedure (for any non-medical reasons) was changed to male genital mutilation I think it would be a first step into making people realise what circumcision is and changing attitudes towards it within the general population.

I don't know why boys are circumcised, I'm not Jewish. Look it up.

It is not mutilation as it can be done in a hospital under anesthetic.

My experience of C of E is that it is very welcoming and wouldn't really be bothered if you weren't christened. I think that C of E attempts to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

It's terribly important Jews and Muslims (and most Americans) have hammered home to them again and again that this is a serious breach of the human rights of baby boys and that many many people think it shoudl be outlawed and indeed plenty protest against it.

If people don't make a stand whilst wrongs are done then they are condoning the act.

Also it does affect your sex life and a whole heap of other things result. Thankfully it is dying out in the UK and hopefully the more musnetters who speak against the awful practice the more likely its demise will be hastened.

So why bother with a christening at all? All Christians don't need to be christened then if it doesn't matter. Or adhere to the bible. Or pray. Or do anything? You get my point ... Religion is inherently based on certain values, beliefs and rituals. Religion is a way of holding people and society together. That's why it's so prevalent in America, where they don't have as much history as the UK.

Actually it is becoming more popular in the US, as it is more hygienic. You don't need a foreskin, like you don't need tonsils.

So it's just a jumbo jumbo replacement for history?!

You don't need an appendix, an earlobe, more than one kidney, hair...

I wasn't Christened, I class myself as a Christian. My parents are Christians they just decided it was for me to choose which IMO is the only ethical way to do things. You do not own your children, you have NO RIGHT to indoctrinate them in to any religion or alter their body without consent. They are free people who ought to be able to make their own choices about their lives and their bodies.

er Christening is where the parents make a public commitment to bring up their child to the best of their ability in the Christian faith.
It doesn't make the child a Christian... they can make that decision for themselves later if they want to (or not as the case may be).
Christian parents who chose not to have a christening are not excluded at all. Neither are their children. Our vicar hasn't had his kids christened! Just a lovely service of thanksgiving for their lives. They will make their own minds up, as will my kids

wellies; soap and water! no need for removal of the foreskin.

FFS the inside of my eye would be more hygienic if i removed my eyeball to clean it but it doesn't mean i'm going to the cutlery drawer for a fork does it?

I don't think a boy will be ousted if they're not circumcised. (It's not like they're going to check anyone's penis) You're considered Jewish if your mother is Jewish.

I had an entire debate with a Rabbi and he could not explain why circumcision is not mentioned at all in the first version of the Torah or why the procedure is dramatically different (ie far more skin is off now) when circumcision was introduced. I explained why I thought it went against of the core values of Judaism (love, kindness, learning, compassion etc) and he actually agreed with me on these.

A friend of mine was circumcised as a 3 year old for medical reasons. I asked him for his opinion and he actually put his hands over his privates in horror at the thought of the procedure, he still remembers the pain and discomfort of the operation.

The American Academy of Pediatrics advises against neo natal circumcision for non-medical reasons. Infant circumcision is a multi billion industry in the USA, each circumcisions earns a doctor around $250 for a 20 minute procedure which is why it is actively promoted DESPITE the advice of the AAP.

Wellies - I'm an atheist through choice. However, I know for a FACT that you do not have to be Christened to be accepted into a CofE church. When I was in 10/11, and learning who I was, I attended a CofE church (without my family) even though I wasn't christened. At the age of 11, I was BAPTISED BY CHOICE. And thus accepted into the congregation of the Church when I made up my own mind that I wanted to be. And you certainly don't have to CUT OFF BITS OF YOUR BABY to be accepted into the Christian faith.

My atheism came at a later date (14yo) after I realised the CofE's position on non-believers that commited suicide without seeking forgiveness and 'letting God into their heart'. As this struck a raw nerve (my dad had committed suicide whilst being a non-believer, and didn't 'let God into his heart' before he died), I reviewed my beliefs, and decided that Atheism was for me, as I could not blindly follow any religion, as they ALL had parts that I disagreed with.

Male genital mutilation is actually declining in popularity in the US, 32% of baby boys in 2010, it was 56% in 2006.

The US medical bods actually advise against it for non medical reasons, but as the procedure nets a doctor $250, they ignore the guidelines.

Wellies, a man's foreskin protects the sensitivity of the glans and makes sex far more pleasurable, just as the clitoral hood protects a woman's clitoris and it's sensitivity.
Ask any adult man who has no medical problems with his foreskin if he would like to undertake a procedure ( without pain relief) that would seriously affect his sex life, what do you think the answer would be???

I agree hunty as do duch they make very valid points. I think in this day an age it is becoming less acceptable, and parents are taking a stand against the practice. Just because its thousands of years old does not make it right at all, there are many ancient traditions that have died out now because of this very thing.

Malificence, actually the AAP has a neutral position on MC, they do not advise against it. And they are expected to issue a new statement in 2012 to take into account hundreds of new studies done since their last position was issued, including all the data from 2006 onwards on HIV, herpes and HPV prevention. It will be interesting to see what position they take.