Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
pooka · 25/10/2011 21:29

I agree with previous posters who've said that her saying "it's disgusting" is enough of an explanation and a damned sight more sensitive and sugar-coated than going into the reasons why it disgusts her.

I'm with her in feeling revolted by ritual infant circumcision. Obviously I would not say this to step-step sisters (complicated) who are Jewish and have done this with their children. Because I would rather not discuss it full-stop than sayy why I feel it is abhorrent. Better not to go there, because we are polite to each other but not especially close and not close enough to have a bust-up. But if I had been invited to the bris I would have declined and if pushed would have said why.

MidsomerM · 25/10/2011 21:31

No anaesthetic cream would come anywhere near dulling the pain of a circumcision. Would anyone like to apply a bit of emla cream to a sensitive part of their anatomy and see what it feels like to slice it off?! Volunteers anyone?

DutchGirly · 25/10/2011 21:31

FabbyChic, you can't make that generalisation, I am Jewish and I find that quite offensive.

I do follow the most important beliefs of Judaism which is all about love, respect, kindness, intelligence, learning and I follow these core values as I think that is the essence of the faith, not as and when it suits me.

breatheslowly · 25/10/2011 21:33

OP - do you not think you were being rather naive to believe that people who are not Jewish would support you in circumcising your son?

nenevomito · 25/10/2011 21:33

There are a lot of frum Jews who do follow it all.

CardyMow · 25/10/2011 21:35

How is allowing someone to unnecessarily cause your baby pain by getting circumcised for non-medical reasons without anaesthetic ANY different to allowing your child to, say have their nails pulled out with pliers? And standing by and allowing it? Not one person on MN would say that pulling an 8-day old baby's nails out with pliers is NOT barbaric and NOT inhumane, surely? So how is this ANY different? Surely this is JUST as barbaric and inhumane as pulling out the same baby's nails with pliers?

Would it make any difference on your view of this hypothetical 8-day old baby's nails being pulled out by pliers with no anaesthetic if I told you the person doing it was a qualified surgeon? NO? Then it makes no difference when someone tells me that it makes a difference when a baby is circumcised by a 'qualified surgeon'. Still makes it child abuse.

And, anyway - HOW in the name of FUCKITY FUCK can the person performing a ritual circumcision be a 'qualified surgeon'? Surely the Hippocratic Oath states 'First do no harm'. How does this work with the Hippocratic Oath then? I certainly wouldn't want any qualified surgeon who is prepared to carry out ritual circumcisions doing ANY sort of operation on ME if he wasn't willing to follow the Hippocratic Oath at ALL times...

pooka · 25/10/2011 21:36

And it does disgust me. It makes me feel quite sick, more so since I've had my two boys and the younger was ill and needed hospital treatment and blood tests as a newborn. Putting him through that as a medical necessity was hideous. Inflicting pain with no medical need would have been unthinkable.

benandhollyandgaston · 25/10/2011 21:39

If I was your SIL not only would I have flatly refused to come but I would also, right now, be hoping that your scan was wrong and that you were carrying another DD so you weren't planning to do this to your newborn.

GColdtimer · 25/10/2011 21:41

Pooka, you and I have been on these threads before. Holding dd2 down when she was 5 days old while the doctors stuck canulas in her was heart wrenching. And that was to save her life.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 25/10/2011 21:41

when my ds was born i had to get my then partner to cut his nails as i was so terrified of nipping him with the clippers. then one time my mum did nip him. a tiny little nick and he screeched the place down. it wasn't even me that did it but i felt so guilty. he was sobbing his little heart out. i can't imagine how a parent could override their protective instinct and actually want to hurt their child, let alone arrange for it to happen and for an audience to 'celebrate' it. it's sick. there is something very wrong with people who do this.

onagar · 25/10/2011 21:42

If it were my belief and my religion that required me to cut the tip of the smallest finger off then would those supporting circumcision support me and respect my choice?

It's a serious question. You wouldn't cut the tip of a finger off, but could you bring yourself to accept that someone else might feel it was right?

benandhollyandgaston · 25/10/2011 21:44

Yep twofalls, me too, I had to hold down my screaming, terrified newborn while a registrar tried (and failed) to put a canula in her hand three times.

It felt barbaric, but at least it was to her benefit.

BrianAndHisBalls · 25/10/2011 21:45

Bloody hell I actually agree with FabbyChic!

Child abuse but done in the name of 'god' Hmm so that's ok then.

HappyCamel · 25/10/2011 21:45

I'm a Christian. I don't understand how anyone who believes in a Creator God can also think "oh he left a bit on 50% of the babies that are born that he'd like me to cut off".

With Isaac He showed He didn't want human sacrifice. He made us perfect, lovely and in His image. He doesn't want us to hide ourselves or mutilate ourselves or each other. If we do we're saying He got us wrong and made us dirty or shameful. But we are beautiful, all of us and He loves us all.

I think He would want us to speak out against those that want to harm others, especially innocent defenceless babies. I don't see how taking a knife to a child is acceptable to anyone.

frutilla · 25/10/2011 21:46

YABU not to see her point of view. I'm Jewish and I wouldn't go either. Nor did I circumcise my two sons, many people feel that circumcision of minors should be illegal, even Jews like me...

pooka · 25/10/2011 21:46

Twofalls - yes have been on other similar threads. Same old...

With you on the canula - I found it almost impossible to maintain composure. The doc asked if I wanted to leave because was so upsetting. But I couldn't leave ds. He was 4 weeks old at the time - must have been awful with a 5 day old.

nenevomito · 25/10/2011 21:51

My newborn spent his first weeks in the SCBU. There's a massive difference between that and a Brit Milah.

GColdtimer · 25/10/2011 21:53

Just horrible pooka and benandholly, so upsetting,

Frutilla, is choosing not to circumcise a growing trend would you say. And do you come up against a lot of hostility from others because of your decision.

GColdtimer · 25/10/2011 21:55

Yes. Massive difference nene. One is an absolute necessity to save a life. The other is a pointless and barbaric mutilation that even others of the same faith are turning their back on.

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 25/10/2011 21:55

Yes that's true. DD went to scbu at 12 hours old and I was sent down to the next floor while they put the cannula in because her crying would upset me. I asked to stay but they wouldn't let me. I swear I could still hear her screaming.

DutchGirly · 25/10/2011 21:56

Nenevomito, yes there is a massive difference between staying in the SCBU and a Brit Milah.

The stay in SCBY saved your newborns life, a Brit Milah is not for the benefit of your newborn, it is for the benefit of your beliefs inflicted upon your newborn.

topknob · 25/10/2011 21:59

when dd1 was ill at 2 weeks old but 5 weeks prem, so 3 weeks before due date (had RSV) the nurse in hospital took her to another room so I didn't have to witness the canula insertion....how on earth would you allow someone to inflict such pain on a baby without knocking his block off !

nenevomito · 25/10/2011 22:08

Interesting the assumption that I'm Jewish. I'm not, by the way. I'm an atheist theologian.

I've spent time with my child in the SCBU and several other medical treatments as well. I've also been to celebrate bris.

There is a huge difference.

But there's nothing like a bit of righteous indignation and supposed moral superiority to get MN frothing like bubble bath in a jacuzzi.

onagar · 25/10/2011 22:11

nenevomito so you don't even have the poor excuse of it being drummed into you as a child? You just like it yes?

Moominsarescary · 25/10/2011 22:11

My eldest son was circumcised at 8 for medical reasons, he was in pain for weeks after. They used cream to numb his hand where they were putting the cannula in, it didn't work and he cried his eyes out.

What sort of person thinks it's ok to chop pieces off their newborn baby using only cream that doesn't even stop the pain of a tube being inserted, infact what sort of person thinks it's ok to inflict harm on their child in the name of religion.

I also had a newborn in nicu and couldn't watch some of the procedures ds had to go through, my dp stayed for some and it haunts him and these procedures were to save his life