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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
frutilla · 25/10/2011 22:12

Twofalls, the consciousness about circumcision is def growing, there are rabbis who will perform a ceremony that is a meaningful but mutilation-free alternative bris. I would beg anyone thinking about having their baby circumcised to watch a video first, there are lots on youtube like this one

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 25/10/2011 22:12

Yes there is a huge difference. We're agreed on that. One is necessary medical treatment, the other is herd-following. Big difference.

KRITIQ · 25/10/2011 22:21

In response to the initial question, YANBU to feel upset and hurt that your SIL, someone you love and respect, has used the word "disgust" to describe something that is important to you and an integral part of your heritage and identity. I wondered if some of the upset you are feeling might be because that word and similar terms have been used to describe Jewish people so in itself, the word might feel triggering of a whole lot of other difficult feelings. Your SIL might be completely oblivious to this, having not been brought up in Jewish family or community.

However, YABU to have assumed that your SIL would be okay about being involved in the bris, or okay about circumcision itself. Although not quite the same, there have been times when I have been asked (or rather expected) to engage in an activity, practice or custom that I'm not that happy about. It's felt like I've been put on the spot - do I hide my upset and go with the flow to avoid upsetting others? Or do I decline, stay true to myself, but risk others feeling let down? In situations like that, I find I just wish someone had had a discrete word with me first to see if it was "okay" before rolling along with things.

Your SIL and others are within their rights to not wish their dss to be circumcised and also to feel strongly that it shouldn't be practiced. However, because it is legal and clinical opinions are divided on the issue, you also have a right to choose this for your child.

Something about some of the comments here bugs me though. I was born in the Midwestern USA. When I did a bit of research on this 7 or 8 years ago for work, I discovered that close to 100% of male infants born in that region in the 1960's and 70's were circumcised (which is why the hospital bill is larger for having a boy than a girl.) It does seem that the percentage is declining - in part due to parental choice and in part due to changing demographics - people moving into the area from cultures that don't tend to follow the practice (e.g. Latin American heritage.)

Every male member of my family in America was circumcised at birth, or soon after. As far as I am aware, they are all pretty ordinary, normal guys. My brother and nephews are in relationships, have children, seem to be pretty content. I think most people where I come from aren't even aware that it's not common practice everywhere in the world. My mum was totally shocked when I mentioned my DH and most British men aren't circumcised.

Personally, it's not something I would advocate, but imho, some folks seem to be going over the top, verging on the hysterical, particularly in describing parents who choose to have their boys circumcised as child abusers or likening it to sexual abuse.

And, if it is something folks find so abhorrent, where are the petitions, the demonstrations and the calls to boycott American goods and services, cancelled holidays to Florida, etc., because the practice is so heavily promoted in America? It just seems a bit curious that the ire seems to be reserved for those who circumcise for religious rather than cultural reasons, particularly where that culture is that of the USA.

Popbiscuit · 25/10/2011 22:33

Very well put, Kritiq. These threads always seem to take such an intolerant slant towards certain religions that I think they give Mumsnet a bad name.

HappyCamel · 25/10/2011 22:35

I'd condemn all mutilation of others, especially of children, regardless of the motivation for doing it. I wasn't aware it was widespread in the US.

Of course taking a knife to a child, especially without or with minimal anaesthetic, and scarring them for life is child abuse. Actually, deliberately maiming anyone is abuse unless they consent themselves.

TiggyD · 25/10/2011 22:35

YANBU to be upset, but she wasn't being unreasonable to tell you she thinks it's disgusting. It is.

Thingumy · 25/10/2011 22:36

Yes very put across KRITIQ

Thingumy · 25/10/2011 22:36

well

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 22:38

Good post Kritiq.

GuillotinedMaryLacey · 25/10/2011 22:38

Don't agree at all. This thread happens to be about circumcision for religious reasons. Start a thread about the US and you'll find the same thing. Read back over the replies and see how many people have stated that they disagree with the practice for non essential reasons. That includes cultural.

Funny thing about taking scalpels to newborns. Seems to bring out the passion in people for some reason. Wonder why...

MrBloomsNursery · 25/10/2011 22:42

Well put Kritiq...

GalloweesG · 25/10/2011 22:51

Irrelevant Kritiq. If anyone came to this forum wanting reassurance about circumcision they'd get the same response.

Personally I couldn't give a fuck which bunch of fairy stories an individual subscribes to, it's mutilating babies unnecessarily that infuriates me.

Fwiw circumcision rates are falling year on year in the US,they are also carried out in surgical facilities by qualified staff. Still unecessarry but slightly safer.

breadandbutterfly · 25/10/2011 22:55

Hi OP. Not read whole (seemingly v aggressive) thread. Suggest this was the wrong place to post My Ds is circumcised and is fine. My nephew is also circumcised - know he was in so little pain he actually didn't cry at all during it. So take 'deep trauma' criticisms from those who have never seen one with a pinch of salt.

HappyCamel · 25/10/2011 23:00

My Ex P is scarred for life. He is desensitised and has erectile disfunction due to lack of sensation. Our relationship didn't survive partly due to this. His relationship with his parents, who did it to him, isn't great either but he's never told them why.

Thingumy · 25/10/2011 23:07

My dh has no issues with his circ

Moominsarescary · 25/10/2011 23:12

I have to say that before ds had his done for medical reasons I was pretty naive about the whole thing, because I knew people had babies circumcised without ga I stupidly thought that it would be a minor op with no pain after

How wrong was I! It was painful for him and he had problems for years , as for those who state the baby didnt cry/ didn't cry for long. If it doesn't hurt how come catching the foreskin in a zipper brings tears to grown men's eyes?

onagar · 25/10/2011 23:37

I wondered if some of the upset you are feeling might be because that word and similar terms have been used to describe Jewish people so in itself

So KRITIQ you want to connect disagreeing with circumcision with anti-Semitism and being what? Pro-American?

Whatever they are doing in the US it's not in this country, but if it helps I've never been to Florida so I guess that's my protest taken care of.

Also Muslims circumcise too and that's abuse too in my opinion. I don't care what the reason, race or religion. Abuse is abuse.

zipzap · 25/10/2011 23:42

Maybe your sil assumed that her dh knew that as he wasn't marrying somebody who was Jewish and therefore it was obvious to her that should they have any boys they wouldn't be circumcised, especially given that it is something she finds disgusting.

But then she hears him discussing it with you and your dh and to him it's a non-issue, there are 3 of you and one of her, she might be reeling with shock that her dh is actively supporting it whereas maybe when they were discussing it before they got married he gave her the impression that it wasn't something that was important to him. So she's suddenly seeing her dh in a whole new light and finding herself in a scary position that she hadn't contemplated before that maybe it is more important to her dh now than it used to be and that could have serious knock on consequences for their relationship and any boys they may have together. So she may have been in shock as well as a minority and not feeling comfortable to speak out.

But if being circumcised is such a good thing, wouldn't the uncircumcised adult men be queuing up to have the op done? Or if it's not a painful thing then maybe the ceremony would involve the person doing it or the dad or a close male relative offering up their own penis for a couple of extra cuts for good measure, without anaesthetic of course. And yet there are very few men (medical reasons excepted) who actively seek out the procedure. Most that you ask will cross their legs, put their hands over their genitals and wince whilst saying No Way. And often in much stronger terms.

Would you choose to have it done if it wasn't a requirement of your religion - if they put out an edict that said 'you don't need to bother with circumcision any more but you can still have the party so long as there's a ritual wash/ hair cut/ ear piercing/tattooing/ whatever' - would you still go ahead and have it done or would you let it be your child's choice when they were old enough?

Northernlurker · 25/10/2011 23:54

It's completely pointless to say 'what if your religion said '. The OP practices a faith, knows what that faith requires and intends to bring her child up in that faith, accepting the consequences for her as a mother and for him. What is now happening on this thread is a berating of her for the choice that she is making for reasons of her faith. She is being attacked for holding that faith and for practicing it. Now personally I don't agree with circumcision and it is not a requirement for my faith. I can respect her position however and accept that she is carrying out a practice that is absolutely legal in this country and is part of a worldwide and centuries old tradition. I may not like it, nor does the OP's sil but we will be getting no further with this argument and the continued accusations of child abuse are both absurdly overblown and offensive. Do any of you seriously believe she does not love her child?

hester · 26/10/2011 00:01

I can't bring myself to read the whole thread, knowing from previous experience how these things go.

So I'm just popping in to offer a wave of solidarity to OP Smile

onagar · 26/10/2011 00:01

Northernlurker it may be pointless in your eyes but unless you have a thread monitor badge from MNHQ you are just going to have to put up with it.

KRITIQ · 26/10/2011 00:12

Onagar, I think you missed my point completely.

I was very clear in asking whether the use of the word "disgusting" might have been triggering in some way for the op because of its use within the context of persecution of Jews. I also pointed out that her SIL most likely wouldn't have been aware of this. I might have been completely off beam as well. It was only a thought about why the use of the word "disgusted" seemed to cause her such distress. That is all.

The difficulty with discussions where people decry a specific practice of say a faith community or ethnic minority group is that there is the potential to question whether their beef is really with the practice or that it's a useful means of bashing a group they don't like. However, if one is consistent in condemning a practice wherever it happens, at least that gives come credence to the idea that it is the practice being criticised, not the people. I just hadn't noticed much condemnation of Americans here, that's all.

Northernlurker · 26/10/2011 00:24

Onagar - it's pointless and unpleasantly aggressive. I don't need a badge to say that nor do I need to just put up with it. The posters attempting to bully the OP out of her decision should be ashamed of themselves.

imlikeaironingboard · 26/10/2011 00:34

Thank you northernlurker and KRITIQ
And Krit I guess you may be right on that one about tiggering something.

oh and hester and actaully anyone who has said something constructive and not called me an abuser or called into question my love of my children irrelevant of their personal view of circumcision but addressed my original question. (and zip zap to me that question is irrelevant as i am not in tha situation and have never been in that situation - but can I actually thank you for saying that in a way that is actually reasonable, but i do understand that POV i just don't hold it)

OP posts:
ohnoshedittant · 26/10/2011 00:51

'The posters attempting to bully the OP out of her decision should be ashamed of themselves'

No they shouldn't. There is a lot of silly bullying that goes on here, but trying to persaude someone not to mutilate their newborn baby isn't something that anyone should be ashamed of.

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