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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

999 replies

imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 01:05

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

OP posts:
Methe · 25/10/2011 20:39

Oh come on, you're not real are you..

PosiesOfPoison · 25/10/2011 20:42

Where's the tact you're showing your baby? You're hardly suggesting to cut off the end of his penis are you?

ravenAK · 25/10/2011 20:42

Maybe she finds it quite difficult to talk about.

In her shoes, I quite likely would just blurt something like 'I can't, I think it's disgusting'. & then shut up.

Because if I didn't, I'd end up telling you what I really thought - & I doubt we'd be on speaking terms once I'd finished.

Her restraint may speak quite highly of her regard for you, despite your proposed mutilation of your baby.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 25/10/2011 20:43

OP what words would you rather she used to expain disgust in a way that you did not already understand?

MrBloomsNursery · 25/10/2011 20:43

This thread is just terrible.

Seeing as we're talking about religious acts/traditions that don't need to be followed. Can I ask those of you who don't believe in religion/God/Christianity and don't like forcing beliefs on children, why you still like to celebrate Christmas and have a tree in the room with presents and dinner? Isn't the whole point of Christmas celebrating the birth of Jesus, who was born a Jew...probably circumcised too...Why celebrate something that you don't believe in?

crunchbag · 25/10/2011 20:44

To SIL there is no option on it either.

Agree with ravenAK

onagar · 25/10/2011 20:46

You've asked 100s of people about this and almost all have said it is disgusting. Does that make you wonder at all about the rightness of it? I mean are we all demons in disguise tempting you from the true path or ordinary people who find it repulsive to harm a child. Why do so many think this if there is no reason to?

Methe · 25/10/2011 20:46

Terrible for who?

Upsetting (hopefully) for the parents who are going to mutiliate.

Last time I checked Father Christmas didn't wield a scalpel.

Original poster
imlikeaironingboard · 25/10/2011 20:50

no. because people on mn does not equal the world and the miilions of people who partake in circumcision in the world.

OP posts:
onagar · 25/10/2011 20:53

Isn't the whole point of Christmas celebrating the birth of Jesus

No it's a mid-winter celebration that some other religions have latched onto. We were having a good time in mid-december before Christians came along and insisted on renaming it.

Jesus if he existed wasn't born in December and you can't think the yule log, holly etc are anything to do with Christianity?

Same as Easter really.

GnomeDePlume · 25/10/2011 20:53

MrBloomsNursery - Christmas in the UK is hardly a religious festival except if participants choose it to be. Midwinter feasting has been around for longer than Christianity.

I celebrate in an entirely secular fashion.

Methe · 25/10/2011 20:54

millions of people partake in FGM. That does NOT make it right. You are warped OP. Your poor son.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 25/10/2011 20:55

"Can I ask those of you who don't believe in religion/God/Christianity and don't like forcing beliefs on children, why you still like to celebrate Christmas and have a tree in the room with presents and dinner? "

do we? Confused

DutchGirly · 25/10/2011 20:57

Mr Bloom, the tree, dinner and gifts is a Pagan tradition, it is not part of the Christian belief. It is part of the winter solstice that is celebrated on the shortest day of the year, 21st of December.

As far as I am aware, having a tree, dinner and gifts does not inflict pain either on another person so that comparison is void.

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo · 25/10/2011 20:57

OP you have ignored my question.

what words would have preferred your SIL to use to explain disgust in a way that wasn't already obvious?

breatheslowly · 25/10/2011 20:58

I can't see how an explanation would further what she has said other than to irritate you more.

Your cousins may wear wigs, but that doesn't damage them, doesn't damage their children and is their own choice, not that of their parents.

It is a complete cop out to say that you aren't going to explain your faith to anyone when you are inflicting it on your son in an irreversible manner.

FriggOmortisFRIGG · 25/10/2011 20:58

i also celebrate midwinter,it was here long before Christianity insisted it was called something else.

and OP you DO have a choice,it's your newborn baby who does not.

crunchbag · 25/10/2011 21:00

My children belief in father christmas and sint nicolaas, they bring presents but don't ask for sacrificing a part of their body in return :)

onagar · 25/10/2011 21:01

I suppose there IS the tooth fairy. Okay we will let Jehovah take foreskins if he waits until they fall off naturally.

PosiesOfPoison · 25/10/2011 21:02

I love Christmas we even read the STORY and have a nativity, (we also read the Gruffalo and know that's not real). At Christmas we never insert a tree into our children's genitals, father Christmas doesn't leave a gift and take a foreskin, and the last I hear the Christmas fairy just enjoys sitting on the tree and we don't have to allow her to scar our children either.

Sirzy · 25/10/2011 21:03

I think you are being unfair on your SIL expecting her to hide her feelings. Everyone is entitled to there views and entitled to air them.

The christmas comment from PP isn't comparable at all IMO. Christmas has such meaning now that for a lot of people it isn't at all religious, but for those people who do celebrate the religious aspects of it no harm is caused to anyone by doing so.

CardyMow · 25/10/2011 21:04

But, OP - if my FEELING is that medically unnecessary circumsision without anaesthetic DISGUSTS me - how should I sugar coat that without lying? I suppose I could say that it makes me feel sick that anyone would willingly inflict pain like that unnecessarily on a baby that cannot speak for itself. I could say that I find the practice of male circumcision AS MUCH of an abuse against children as FGM. I could say that the very idea of anyone having done that to any of my 3 DS's would have faced ME chopping off exactly the same part of their anatomy without anaesthetic and seeing if THEY found it painful and barbaric.

On balance, I think me telling someone who was asking me to be a part of something I am so vehemently against that I cannot as I find it disgusting is probably the least offensive of all my possible answers - and I can well imagine that your SIL thought the same thing.

She did NOT marry judaism, she married your BIL. What is wrong with her NOT having shared her biews on this before? It's not a conversation I would go out of my way to have with anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs.

And MrBloom - I DO think of it as child abuse, I am entitled to my own opinion. If someone walked up to your baby and chopped off their finger in the street - you'd be gnashing your teeth, wailing, and probably wanting to KILL them. Why is cutting off a foreskin without anaesthetic ANY different? Just because it is 'decreed' by your religion? I just CANNOT and WILL NOT EVER understand how someone can be SO hypocritical as to think that it would be OK to call someone cutting a baby's finger off a child abuser, or someone who carries out FGM a child abuser, but not someone who cuts off a child's foreskin. One and the same IMO.

And YES, I HAVE lost friends over this viewpoint - one woman who was a good friend for a number of years got her DS circumcised at 8 days old. I just cannot bring myself to spend time with her anymore - if her judgement is so off as to think it is not child abuse to cut parts of her baby off without anaesthetic - what else does she think is NOT child abuse? I cannot bring myself to be friendly towards someone who mutilates their child like this. We obviously do NOT share the same outlook on life. It's NOT about being racist - it's about not condoning mutilation - be it FGM or circumcision for non-medical reasons.

AgentZigzag · 25/10/2011 21:05

'to my SIL i would explain something if it came up about my faith (as it sometimes does about food) I expect the same courtisy that is all.'

You might explain something if it came up about your faith, but you can't expect others to conform to your personal beliefs OP.

I also wouldn't talk about religion on an internet forum, and I'd like to see anyone try to tell me that's unacceptable and it upsets them Grin

And by that same token, you have no other option but to respect your SILs decision not to talk about it to you, or what she decided to say to you about her reasons not to attend.

You have no right to have access to her conscience, it's private.

breatheslowly · 25/10/2011 21:06

We celebrate Christmas as a midwinter festival. We do celebrate it on Christmas Day as we all have that day off work. We celebrate with a feast (a midwinter feast is common to many cultures and religions) primarily of food that was discovered in the New World, so not really part of long held Christian celebrations and the exchanging of gifts. Jesus doesn't get a look in in our house and no one gets hurt. I don't see how you can get further from the example of circumcision of an non-consenting child of not very observant Jews.

GColdtimer · 25/10/2011 21:07

Last I saw my Christmas tree doesn't inflict pain on my child and the wearing of wigs doesn't actually result in a bit of their anatomy being lopped off.

These threads always go the same way. The proponents can never give good enough reasons to support inflicting pain on their child and just end up stamping their foot saying it's their right to do it and they don't have to explain themselves to anyone. I am just so glad I am not part of a religion that makes me so blind to human decency.

Op when you first hold you DS in those first moments after he is born and you feel those overwhelming emotions of love and the desire to protect, just remember in 8 short days you are going to inflict unimaginable pain on him and ask yourself truly why.