to be fed up with posters on here defending men that are lazy or behave badly?

[Swankyswishing]

I'm fed up with it.

If someone posts that their husband or partner isn't pulling his weight with the children or in the house, replies say things like "Men need praise when they do things right" or "It doesn't come naturally to men, they need to be trained" or "Some men find babies daunting and prefer them when they're older"

Usually if a man isn't pulling his weight it's because he's lazy or a big child. I refuse to pander to my DH and he is expected to pull his weight in the house the same amount that I do. I refuse to make concessions or allow him to behave like an extra child just because he's a man!

Imperial I am glad you were not amrried to my Dh then, becuase it ws me wondering whether he was depressed in a similar scenario that sved his life!

Dh is wonderful: when well does at least as much as me (we have an atypical set up: he is self employed and FT student so erratic long hours all in, I am carer and PT student so erratic long hours of a very different kind all in...) and supports me all the way with my choices. When ill he is pretty much a spare part but he always sees a GP on my request (the deal we have- if I am worried he gets help) and addresses it. I am happy in my marriage.

But otoh I know the men the OP speaks of: was chatitng to oldest mate last night about how her DH is angry as she works when he used to play golf- his wage does not allow her top stay home, she is a CM on weekdays but they need extra money (took on a large mortgage to provide space for a family member who has now passed, can't sell) - if he's willing to provide the sperm then he takes the strain with childcare, end of.

' I think it means that women who have good partners/DHs don't post about their DHs unreasonable behaviour because he isn't behaving unreasonably'

nobody ism perfect

but if I am upset with dh don;t post for a few reasons:

1. have tried it before and been told to get rid when really that wasn't needed, a long chat was and that sorted the (non DV non affair non nasty) problem

1. respect for DH; I am not perfect either and I would not be chuffed it was spelled out exactly how from his side only online

1. From a past relationship I have found that 'going public' with (again non DV etc) problems is a sure way to make them worse, instead of bitching with my female friends (and I was doing that) i'd have been far better talking to him and making a decision either way (in the end I left but so late we had a massive pre-wedding bill to pay off)

akaem, 3 stories proves that 3 men were assholes, more stories would also prove that more men were assholes non of that proves your comment wasn't sexist. i'm pretty sure i and plenty others here could tell you stories of women being selfish and lazy and disrespectful. it still isn't proof that women in teh main are lazy and selfish.

I think it means that women who have good partners/DHs don't post about their DHs unreasonable behaviour because he isn't behaving unreasonably'

Probably true, but I do see some posting just to let off steam - good things too :o.

I also think there are some very unreasonable women posting - some understandable (Pregnant etc), others less so.

Peachy, it would be interesting to find out how willing women are to post on forums like these about problems with their partners. I think most women tend to post after spending some considerable time already spent mulling things over. There is obviously a small but significant group who post every single detail of their lives and clearly love a good moan but I honestly believe they are a minority (albeit one that makes its presence felt). IMO many accusations of 'drip-feeding' are not a poster drip-feeding at all, they are a woman who, once the flood gates have openend, is releasing months, if not years, of pent-up frustration and misery about all the other ways her 'D'H is treating her like dirt.

Apologies for the absolutely appalling grammar in that last post.

A general question

Imagine you came across a website for men whose wives had cheated on them. You read comments like
women really are bitches, aren't they?
women can't be trusted
women are mostly gold-diggers
they're never satisfied. Why can't they just be happy with us
men always get shafted in custody arrangements
Over and over on different threads . What would you be tempted to post? Would you be feeling a need to point out exceptions to their experience?

MHM : that site would be classed as an outrage on here.

Unfortunately you do get some poster on here who would tell a woman to leave a partner for the most minor infraction imaginable. And yes having read through a lot of threads you do see a lot of bitterness/sheer nastyness towards men.

I do however feel that a man who is intentionally useless (and lets face most of us will have met at least one in our lives) does deserve a good arse kicking.

But do remember a talk often solves more than a rant.

The thing about having permission to say you're struggling with the baby stuff, if you're a new father, is that the next question has to be, 'What are you going to do about that/ how are you going to get to grips with it?"

Or is opting out an option?

Is there a point where 'struggling' becomes 'taking the piss' (in other words, allowing the person most likely to take up slack to do so).

As for not being there emotionally for a spouse, there is no excuse for that. It takes so little effort to smile and say 'I think you're fab' to the new mother. Why choose instead to grumble that you can't find a clean pair of socks? Where are the heads of people who do this?

Sorry, thread has moved on a bit...

Moonshine I agree with you about the drip feeding.

OK so this is nothing to do with anything but I'm off to give my lovely old DH a big fat kiss as he cooks dinner for us all after a long day at work, despite the fact that I've been sitting around on MN the house most of the day nursing the start of a cold.

As a SW i have to fight the gendered approach that i come across daily in my work.

The mothers are always judged more harshly than the fathers, when things are going wrong.

It is the mums attending the meetings, classes, baby massage etc and this does need addressing.

Sometimes, for a variety of reasons, dad gets residency and they do tend to struggle more because the 'gender roles' have been started at an early age and then the fathers are starting from scratch, with both the baby and the running of the household.

This attitude that the OP is complaining about does neither gender any good.

I think the women on her who actually advocate looking at things from the other persons perspective are the ones who are actualy in happy marriages / long term relationhsips who have realised that there are 2 sides to every story.

The ones who scream "leave" or "abuse" at every small quibble or moan posted seem to be women who have either been in abusive relationships and so see ALL relationships as potentially abusive if even the slightest thing is wrong or those who are single / divorced / separated and are desperate to justify their choices and get others to validate them claiming "its better to be single than in a "bad relationship".

It takes sensitivity, compromise, patience and forgiveness to make a marriage work - from both sides of course but there is nothing stopping you from being the first one to make a move towards sense. I think a lot of relationships don't work out not because "all men are assholes and we deserve better" but because people are so determined to protect their own "right", "needs" etc. they fail to give a damn about their partners feelings or where their other half is coming from.

As soon as you start asking WHY the other person appears to be being a dick you get to the heart of the problem. If you just focus on the bad nehaviour itself and set yourself up as the enemy it will never get resolved. Which is more important - being right or fixing the issue?

The stories we see on here are always only one person's persepctive. They are not objective. There needs to be a reading between the lines, a little analysis to assess whether the poster is truly being reasonable and the man she complains about unreasonable. Even if that is the case there are usually years of back-story which we don't hear about underlying each person's behaviour.

That is why I think more people ought to be advocating tolerance and comminication rather than confrontation and counter abuse or just walking out.

It is absolutely uncontested that whether in a work or home environment there are ways to communicate which achieve better results and ways which exacerbate and irritate an already touchy situation.

Advising someone to confront, shout at or otherwise harrass and heckle their partner is highly unlikely to be an effective solution to their problem. Advsing them to look at it from his perspective and approach the issue in a reasoned way, whilst still acknowledging that the way the OP FEELS is valid and OK has got to be more sensible, less inflammatory and more likely to help the poster's relationship than pouring fuel on an already smouldering resentment or annoyance.

That is why I think more people ought to be advocating tolerance and comminication rather than confrontation and counter abuse or just walking out

But then there would be nothing to BU about and each thread would be 3 posts long :)

Good point!

There is truth in the opening post, which is why there is so much divorce today.
If both members of the couple work full time, and only one of them pulls their weight in the house/childcare, the other one thinks: why am I doing it ALL? This causes resentment (understandably) until the feeling turns to intense dislike of the lazier partner. Being constantly knackered is not good at all.

Women earn money these days, they don't have to put up with so much shit so they cut loose. Who the hell can blame them? At least it will be one less 'baby' to look after.

The only way to correct this is by mothers actually teaching their sons to pull their weight around the house. Getting them to keep their rooms tidy, vacuuming, chores etc.

A relationship does not have to be abusive for it to fall apart.

The only way to correct this is by mothers actually teaching their sons to pull their weight around the house. Getting them to keep their rooms tidy, vacuuming, chores etc.

Or by enforcing miltary service for at least a year Wamster!

My H was in the Navy for 20 years and his ironing is second to none. He is incredibly neat, clean, tidy and punctual because that is how he was trained. Now I just have to get him out of the habit of swearing like a trooper and downing 24 beers whenever he goes out on his own (the undesirable side effects!)

I think if fewer women put up with being treated like domestic appliances, then fewer men would do it

If fewer women thought that being in a relationship, any relationship even if it is with a lazy, selfish, sexist arsehole , was better than being single and if society didn't constantly reinforce it then these men wouldn't find anybody to dance attendance on them

I am in a long term, happy relationship, if anyone is wondering

And I didn't have to "train" "talk around" "flatter into good behaviour" or otherwise use my femi-nine wiles a la a 1950's housewife to attain it either

Given my experience on here I think if fewer women were unreasonable, carping, man-blaming shrews they might find their existing relationships a lot more tolerable than they are currently and not NEED to leave them...

Big difference between "flattering" and "talking round" and just treating your OH like a human being and with some care and consideration - even if they have done something unreasonable - rather than treat them like a surly cur who needs to be whipped into line.

How many people can say they have never been lazy or unreasonable or selfish in their whole lives? Everyone ought to be prepared to take a good look at what their own house is made of before they start throwing stones at anyone else.

After reading some of the comments here I must say I am a lucky wife. My husband will clean the house from top to bottom if I am not here to do 50/50 with him, and the washing and anything else that needs doing, apart from cooking. He can't cook to save his life. However our trade off is he irons and I cook.

I don't think it is unreasonable if the woman is working full time as well as the man to expect him to do housework 50/50.
It would be unreasonable if he worked and she did not. But then as a full time job is 40 or so hours a week, asking woman to do vast majority of it would, I admit, not be unreasonable. If all a woman has to do is housework, then fair enough.

But it's obvious that if both work full time and one doesn't do chores resentment will creep in.

There's no doubt that women's financial independence makes them less tolerant of lazy partners who don't do the chores.
That is why the divorce rate has risen-in part, anyway, women (rightly) don't have to tolerate so much nonsense anymore.
Knowing that it is you that will have to do the washing up every night or the laundry or vacuuming when you're both out at work all day is infuriating.

The trouble is that mothers of sons still tend to do everything for them, passing the problem onto their future daughters-in-law.

Can we stop blaming women for being the reason why men don't do enough housework

My husband's inability to cook, use w ashing machine and dishwasher when I met was his PARENTS fault.

Both of their attitudes informed the result of a grown man who had to be taught by a very cross (then, now wife) girlfriend how to mop a floor without turning it into a lake and how not to turn my jumpers shrunk to Barbie sized garments, again

It wasn't exclusively his mum's fault, his dad was just as much to blame. He was DH's parent too. He colluded just as much in the leaving his son dependant upon leaving home.

IME, the posters who suggest that there is an alternative to living with a lazy, selfish partner are women who are either in happy relationships, or are happily single. It's much more powerful when posters say "Not all men are like this, my partner isn't like that and I expect more from my life" or alternatively "My life as a single parent is infinitely easier now that I don't have a manchild in it".

The ones who call women 'shrews' and tell women to suck-it-up, tend to infantilise men, yet put them on a pedestal at the same time.

I also reject that it is a mother's sole responsibility to teach sons to be a fully functioning human being. My son has learnt more about equality from seeing his Dad doing household chores and teaching him how to do them, than he could have ever learnt from me.

Yes, fair comment, it should be parents not just mother.