to be fed up with posters on here defending men that are lazy or behave badly?

[Swankyswishing]

I'm fed up with it.

If someone posts that their husband or partner isn't pulling his weight with the children or in the house, replies say things like "Men need praise when they do things right" or "It doesn't come naturally to men, they need to be trained" or "Some men find babies daunting and prefer them when they're older"

Usually if a man isn't pulling his weight it's because he's lazy or a big child. I refuse to pander to my DH and he is expected to pull his weight in the house the same amount that I do. I refuse to make concessions or allow him to behave like an extra child just because he's a man!

I'm not surprised you are single, akae. What a load of tripe.

Potato on top shelf!!!

I've heard there might be women around like that but I never thought I would be posting near to one.

Aka change your friends or your job or your area. You meet the wrong people.

I don't think I am being sexist, if I am relating my experiences. If I was saying ALL men are like this and ALL men are like that based on something I have read or been told then yes, sexism. I am basing what I relate to you on my own observations. I honestly wish I wasn't. I wish I didn't know as much about the way big groups of men think and behave en masse, I really do. I do think that many women are unrealistic about their men and what they get up to though. Sorry. I have thought this for ages when reading posts on MN but never get drawn into it because I can't be doing with big bun fights on MN and I knew I would get this kind of response.

What HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo said.

There is an issue with conditioning, by PARENTS (heading off the "blame the mothers" card) and the world at large in terms of how people view the value of their contribution to the family and that of their partner.

But selfishness is a triat that knows no gender.

I am single through choice .

I was in the army at various units for quite a long time. I worked with the police at various locations in various areas. I worked in recruitment all over the country. I worked in the pub trade in many locations.

I have had similar experiences with big groups of men in the majority of these places. How do you explain this?

I've heard there might be women around like that but I never thought I would be posting near to one

It may be catching

Akae, I think your posts say much more about you than the men you have worked with. What you say may be "IME" and only your opinion, but it's still a sexist opinion and out of order.

I don't know any men like you describe.

How do you explain this

Public Machismo

I grew up on RAF bases, spend a good chunck of my career teaching large groups of men, hung around with groups of male colleagues in BKK.

Some were arseholes plain and simple, but enough of them were acting in high contrast to their persona in family life and it appeared to me they were putting on a public face, perhaps to aviod being ribbed for being soft, not manly enough or "hen pecked"?

Self esteem in blokes is maybe a bit more fragile? Or more tied in with group approval?

Or women do the same thing in a group setting, in different ways and its less obvious to me cos I am one?

What do my posts say about me amateurish?

Have you worked in the kind of environments I have?

Yes fastweb I have thought this too, agree. It doesn't mean their wives and girlfriends would be any less hurt or betrayed by their actions and words though and it would still damage the relationship. I know its hard on them. Thats why I was and am able to have strong friendships with many of the men I knew while really disliking their actions.

They say to me that you've had some bad experiences, and like to tar all men with the same bitter brush.

Yes, I worked for the police for many years.

Yes I have had some bad experiences but also some great ones. The men I was in the army with I am still friends with to this day, one or two I love like brothers and hope to know forever. I still would not want to be their wife or girlfriend though, despite them being nice looking, funny, clever etc. I certainly am bitter about my ex H as an individual, he treated me very badly, but I certainly don't tar all my male friends with the same brush. I am afraid you are inaccurate there.

Glad you had good experiences working for the police.

It doesn't mean their wives and girlfriends would be any less hurt or betrayed by their actions and words though and it would still damage the relationship

I take it this was more than willy waving Me Tarzan banter and went all the way through to pack based sexual titilation or more?

.

Or was it full blown running down of wives and gfs?

Both really but more the general lying and disrespect. The phoning to say working late so they didn't have to do the bath time thing with kids, then laughing about it. The accepted sexual harrassment of women working in the environment. Not me so much as I had a very tough boyfriend, although it did happen on occasion and you just had to get on with it, you couldn't complain because YOU would be vilified if you did. Loads and loads of them had women on the side as well, they were quite adament that wives would not be left for these women but these women often didn't know these men were married. The really quite aggressive pursuing of other women, the general banter was often really offensive too.

I think saying "leave him" or "he's and abuser/selfish/entitled git etc" is absolutely the right response to the vast majority of threads about these sort of men. I don't think it means that women generally think all men are like this. I think it means that women who have good partners/DHs don't post about their DHs unreasonable behaviour because he isn't behaving unreasonably. Very few people post threads saying "My DH is wonderful. Nothing more to say."

Most men don't watch porn while expecting their wives/GFs to cook a 3-course-meal, wash up, do the laundry, put the child to bed and then come back downstairs and perform a BJ. Men that expect their partners to do all (or more than their fair share) of housework/childcare are lazy/selfish. Even my late grandparents generation (would be in their 90s if still alive) had a dynamic where my GF cooked on weekends and did some housework because he loved his wife, my GM, he didn't want to see her worn out and he wanted to enjoy her company, which he would have more of if he helped get the chores done sooner). That doesn't make for an interesting thread though.

I don't think it's an over-reaction to say lazy men quite often are abusive. Many couples fall into this trap of the woman doing more than her fair share without being aware of it, particularly once a baby comes along and she's at home on maternity leave. However, but once one partner says "hang on, this isn't fair" the usual, unselfish response is to say "ok what shall we do about it" rather than to carry on regardless. Anyone who does carry on regardless is basically saying "my needs are more important than yours", which is borderline abuser territory (since abuse stems from entitlement and control, not anger).

We should just remember that relationships as portrayed on MN isn't necessarily reflective of the majority.

That said, we live in a country where 20 years ago it was still legal for a man to rape his wife (in fact there was no such thing as rape within marriage). 50 years ago, there was no help for single mothers or battered women. 100 years ago visiting a prostitute was a rite of passage for many men. We have come a very long way since then but our whole society is based on 'male as superior' foundations and therefore it is inevitable that many many women are still told and still feel that they should make excuses for men.

Three men.

One got married to his long term girlfriend, came back the day AFTER the wedding, telling his new wife that a work trip was happening then and he had no choice but to come back. He came back and spend the rest of the week with a female friend of mine until the work trip did actually start.

Another one who married a very good friend of mine, she was pregnant, within weeks of the wedding he was aggressively pursuing pretty much any woman where we worked who even gave him the time of day, he then left her about three weeks before her due date with their second and shacked up with someone else.

Third one, sleeping with someone I know fairly well when he was due to get married. My friend couldn't seem to let him go and in the end he dumped her telling her he HAD to marry this girl as he was in a ton of debt and she was going to help him get out of it. I met his new wife and she was just lovely, not blackmailing with money there, she just wanted to help him out and start married life on an even keel.

These men were NICE men, funny men, men who would go out of their way to help you out work wise, I liked them and had a laugh with them on a day to day basis. Thats only three stories btw I could tell you loads more.

Akaem I wonder how these men would have behaved in more gender-mixed, civilian surroundings. I think one of the problems with male-dominated environments is that they can encourage male entitlement behaviour and normalise behaviour that is unacceptable against women.

Yes maybe. Although I worked in recruitment too with a more equal split and they were pretty bad there too, not to mention the many stories about pigs of husbands I would hear there from the women I worked with.

OP I agree and I'm surprised by some of the responses on this thread, but not others.

The responses to a poster complaining about unequal division of labour often include infantilising nonsense about an entire sex who apparently can't see dirt, aren't good with babies and can't possibly be expected to care for them as well as a mother or female relative.

Lots of posters really have no respect for men and think they are benign little puppies who should be rewarded for being a good boy.

It is really hard to not start to really loathe men when framed in the kind of set up you find yourself.

I got to the point in BKK where I wondered if any man alive would turn down a try on an inexpensive, barely out of puberty, prostititute. And I started to despise men in quite a generalised fashion towards the end.

The Trick is to start hanging out with the sort of men who just aren't in to the male pack thing. The ones you see always ducking out early of the boys nights out.

They are out there love. Doesn't have to be for romance if that is not what you up for. But it does help restore your faith in humanity a bit.

The guys you are mates with may be very personable, but they are not nice men.

You can't trample on another human being like that, and be fundamentally nice, cos your conscience woildn't let you.

And it can be very damaging to allow their letting of you into their club as a spectator colour your vision of what is normal.

It is normal for them, but honest love,( and it took me a good while post BKK to get past my prejudice) it is not normal per se.

I know a handful of men like this these days, (that I aviod like the plague) the rest are the ones I wouldn't have hung out with back in the day, cos they were going home to their family not going out drinking (or worse).

you have credited me with someone else's wisdom fastweb . i didn't say that bit that you quoted.

It is worse in real life op. Excuses I have heard for men in real life:
Men can't handle emotions (expect no sympathy or support whatsoever)
Men aren't good with newborns (they don't want to change nappies)
Men don't like to feel emasculated (they can't handle it if you earn more than them)
Don't chase a man; let him contact you (So he can conveniently ignore you if he dosn't wasn't to sleep with you again)
Men freak out when their women get pregnant (the end of freedom; for them)
Men need to spred their seed (they like to have a few on the go.)

etc etc ect. Mostly accompanied with a shrug of the shoulders 'bloody men' and slight rolling the eyes in order to excuse these awful behaviours.
I know there are many lovely men out there but I am fed up of the excuses we make sometimes.

As a women though I can blame everything on my hormones and periods!

I'm doing soooooooo well today.

Off to badger MNHQ on my threaded veiw begging thread