to be fed up with posters on here defending men that are lazy or behave badly?

[Swankyswishing]

I'm fed up with it.

If someone posts that their husband or partner isn't pulling his weight with the children or in the house, replies say things like "Men need praise when they do things right" or "It doesn't come naturally to men, they need to be trained" or "Some men find babies daunting and prefer them when they're older"

Usually if a man isn't pulling his weight it's because he's lazy or a big child. I refuse to pander to my DH and he is expected to pull his weight in the house the same amount that I do. I refuse to make concessions or allow him to behave like an extra child just because he's a man!

oooh. and altinkum
:)

I think that is true, altinkum, that men have the right to feel overwhelmed/struggling with a baby and perhaps find it hard to say that/get sympathy. I don't know because I don't post much on baby topics!

What I do notice a lot is stuff about housework. I have to say, the 'he's not a mind reader' argument never fails to amaze me - it's the absurd idea that men don't know to clean up after themselves, so not only is a woman being unreasonable to expect it, she's also to blame for not spelling out the fact that the loo doesn't flush itself and the dishes don't wash themselves.

Fastwebb, what are you, the class snitch? "Ummmm, she's starting a thread about a thread. She's naughty". Like I said, if you don't like it or can't contribute properly to a thread, then either don't read it or don't reply.

*sorry, stating the bloody obvious with 'men have aright' .

"Usually if a man isn't pulling his weight it's because he's lazy or a big child"

Or has been badly "trained" and retraining is indeed the way ahead!

And some people really don't see mess/dirt the same way as others. I know, I'm a female example.

IMHO, a lot comes down to identifying the problem, deciding what is the solution you want to see, and working out the way to get there. Which does include a consideration of what tactics are likely to work best with the person you are dealing with. Both supine excuse making and shrill decrying have their pitfalls.

But Altinkum, if a woman is struggling with her baby, chances are she will continue caring for her baby, doing things for them, and things in the house. A woman generally won't, like I said before, dump her baby on her partner 24/7 and go off out constantly. But if a man is struggling with parenthood is seems to be acceptable (on here) for them to do just that.

I have to agree with the OP.
It is true that if a woman didn't care for her newborn baby because she couldn't be arsed, she would be in very big danger of having it taken away, but more often, it's the man that does nothign and the woman has to suck it up and get on with it.

Case in mind:
my dad rang my sister yesterday, and handed the phone to me. while I was talkign to her, the baby did an explosive shit. her DH was in the room, and yet, sis stayed on the phone, and changed the nappy (while describing to me how digusting it was and how it was everywhere) and she had to ask her DH to pass her the baby wipes because he's too stupid or lazy to pass them to her, or take the baby and change him. (bear in mind that I speak to my sister by phone once a month if that)
I relayed this information to my DH and he was shocked that Sis's DH hadn't taken the baby.
My dad just said that's exactly what he's like- he does nothing.

worraliberty, but do you not agree that left to their own devices, lots of men's idea of their share of housework will involve plonking their child in front of the TV or a baby in their bouncy chair or cot, and then carrying on with whatever they want to do?

Yes, in the same way that lots of women's idea of their share will be to plonk the child in front of the TV and carry on posting on the internet...ironically on a parenting website.

People are people and male or female doesn't necessarily come into it for me.

There are shit parents/partners and there are good parents/partners...some male and some female.

Swankyswishing surely that's just because you are more used to the jobs you do regularly? Do you know what he does when he "tidies the garage or something" ? Would he think you do it as well as he does?

It is absolutely reasonable for someone not to understand or remember what needs doing regularly if they are not used to being responsible for it.

EdithWeston, why should a woman have to train her man though? That is exactly the sort of response and point I am referring to. Women aren't trained to do things, we just do them. There is enough "stuff" to do on a daily basis without women having to train their husbands too as if they were a puppy.

What worra said.

I can't imagine anyone "gets" newborns - surely until they start acting like people, they're just babies that need to be cared for, fed, changed and put to sleep (not in a Vet's way).
There's not a lot else to it, surely?
why should women be more responsible for this care than men?

HardCheese... I know this was tongue-in-cheek When I rule the world, everyone will get a compulsory copy of Cornelia Fine's Delusions of Gender and be tested on their comprehension of the main arguments. but it gives me chills....

Why do some women think they have the right to tell other women what they should be doing and thinking all the time?

Can't we have a little moan about a lazy/confuddled/disengaged man about the house sometimes? it's generally light-hearted and not a call to feminist arms. Mine will never think to put the dryer on again if it needs to go on, I can't make a decent cup of tea for well.... all the tea in China. We play to our strengths in this house.

"Or has been badly "trained" and retraining is indeed the way ahead!"

sorry but that is laughable. why on earth should anyone need trained to look after themselves, their children and their home? and if you think people do need trained, why is it the woman's job to train a man and who is training the women? or do you believe that it comes naturally to women?

But SwankySwishing: Fastwebb, what are you, the class snitch? "Ummmm, she's starting a thread about a thread. She's naughty". Like I said, if you don't like it or can't contribute properly to a thread, then either don't read it or don't reply.

The same could be said to you and any other poster who manages to get fed up with what they read on a chatboard... hmm?

Verlaine, well the garage doesn't need tidying on a daily basis, it isn't like meals needing to be cooked or washing that needs doing, so that's a bit of a moot point really.

I don't have a problem with my DH; we share things, sometimes I have to tell him what his share is, but I think it's a cop out to insinuate that someone might not understand, for example, how to unload a dishwasher, or bath their children, because they're not responsible for it. In situations described on here sometimes, where the woman is responsible for all domestic duties, it's usually only that way as the man won't do anything and she has no choice in the matter. It's not usual that a woman will have chosen to be responsible for everything in the house.

nickelbabe of course that's ridiculous, but that's not a "man" thing. That's your BIL and quite possibly your sister has contributed to it (she may not have done). If I had been your sister I would have said "can you take the baby and change his nappy please". In some cases that might not be necessary because the husband would see the need and do it without being asked.

I know someone who does everything for all of her family (and feels put upon) yet I have seen family members offer to do things (never mind being asked) and being told "no, never mind, I'll do it" accompanied by a sigh because they don't do it how she would like it done.

' Women aren't trained to do things, we just do them. '

Really? So I'm imagining all the ranty posts on the teen forum about getting children to tidy rooms and do a share of the housework. And many of the martyred posts about how it's just easier to do it yourself?
I think you are underestimating the amount of subliminal training and expectations made of females. In my house, the expectations are gender-neutral. Everyone does stuff according to preference and ability. The shit stuff we share.
Training should start from very small and build up into being able to live independently and not in squalor.

heres - good point, if men were going around talking about 'training' their wives there'd be an uproar, and rightly so. It's really patronizing to talk that way about another adult.

Agrees with Lying

And as my DH has always taken care of the garden (because he enjoys it) if I suddenly took over, I wouldn't know one end of it from the other...or what has to be trimmed/pruned/planted....when or how often.

If he taught me, I'd get the hang of it eventually but it's not something I'm going to automatically work out for myself.

Well I'm sorry but my DH does not see, for example, dust. But then neither did any of the women I shared a house with at university. Neither does my DD. I don't think it's a gender thing.

And I'll hold my hand up here and say that I have given up that particular fight - re housework - because I have limited energy and I don't want to waste it on rehashing old arguments that we've been having for 20 yrs!

Would I defend him for the charge of being a lazy arse? Well yes I would in part because he isn't. He is fairly hard working in many areas just not in this one. And if he doesn't care about the mess, and neither do the DC, perhaps I am the one with the problem. We have now compromised and we live in a house that I think is quite messy, and DH and the DC do a share of the housework. Would I like him to do more so that we could live in a lovely spotless house? Yes! But that is my issue not his.

Ummmm, she's starting a thread about a thread

I asked why you felt it necessary while the other thread was still active and you could have put your comments there.

Why not express your comments about posters' posts where the posters that so offended you would be most likely to see it?

downby, i agree, the 'training' happens when children are small and should be gender neutral. unfortunatley i think all too often boys are getting let off with this life training because still too many people think it's womens' work.