AIBU to have just realised that I have been sexual assaulted many times

[PippiLongBottom]

I had extremely large breasts as a young teen. I was a 30DD at 13 and my size 8 hour glass figure was very popular with the boys .

At 19 I had my breasts reduced on the NHS because my head was fucked.

It is only with many years of hindsight (I am 36) thanks to Mumsnet and a recently developed feminist perspective that I realise that all the 'incidents' that happened to me were sexual assaults/grooming and not my fault.

I have fb'd one of the cuntslprits tonight.

Did a poster really say that their daughter is very very very beautiful and men can't help but comment? well beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. The child is indeed a cutie (ordinary) like the majority of kids that age but really struggling to see the 'very very very beautiful' angle. People are bold as hell on here...might as well just be as bold and say whats on my mind.

It sounded an odd thing to say to me too, but it's not really the main point of the thread, I guess, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

My Mil was raped when she was 10yrs on the way home from school by 2 much older boys/men. It was thought best to just let it lie and do nothing as far as I know. Sadly, she is a very damaged lady, i'd imagine this might have played a part.

Mummymccar, that's horrible. "The boys confessed during this that they hadn't understood that it was wrong." - I can't believe that though, not at 15. They were surely just trying to avoid facing up admitting blame.

And sozzledchops, also horrible . Who on earth thought it best to let that go?

Thanks for the sympathy for my last post. Unfortunately though I don't think that what happened to me is as rare as we would like to hope, as Sozzled has just shown. So sorry for your MIL Sozzled, and at such a young age too.

"It seems impossible to deal with..."

That's it, isn't it.

I think that's behind a lot of the thinking that says there's no point trying to get men to stop doing this, all we can do is change women's responses to it or get women to avoid it.

I think that attitude is born of a deep pessimism and exhaustion really. But also perhaps, a deep down cynicism about men? That they won't or can't change, so there's no point trying? So let's focus on getting women to protect themselves from this - by not going on the underground, not developing big breasts (how?) not walking past a man unescorted by another man (they don't do it usually, when other men are around because they respect other men's ownership of us) not being alone with a man...all this magical thinking that persuades them that if they follow those rules they won't be subjected to this indignity.

But they know that's unrealistic, so then you have to develop another layer of self-protection - laugh it off, pretend it's trivial, pretend it doesn't matter, accept that you have no right to have your physical boundaries respected in the way a man's normally are. Get angry with other women who point out that actually, outrage isn't an over-reaction, it's a proper response to this horrible assault on our place in the world - because that's what it is: every time it happens, it reminds us that in too many men's eyes, we have no right to be in that tube, in that road, in that house, in that office, without a male protector who will stop that man assaulting you.

It is very uncomfortable to face up to what this means. It means that all the pretence that we have equality now and that by and large men accept us as their equals, is a Big Fat Lie. If they did, they would be as outraged by this behaviour as feminists are, they would think it was terrible, they would imagine how they would feel if it was happening to them (instead of seeing us as the "other", who aren't quite like them) and they would not seek to minimize or deny our experience. They would also not join in with other men, or turn a blind eye to it when it happens, because they wouldn't feel a kneejerk loyalty to their own sex at the expense of that "other" sex, who are supposedly so different to them. It also means that most women have been conditioned to not identify with their own experience and the experience of their own sex - they distance themselves from the outrage so taht they can be identified with the winning side. Understandably. But it's uncomfortable to acknowledge.

And too many men and women, seem to think that it can't be changed, presumably because they have a really low opinion of men. And then they accuse the ones who do think it can and must change, of being man-haters. The logic has always escaped me.

regarding my MIl - her family I think. You know - the shame, the ordeal of everyone knowing etc, better to just ignore it. It was a long time ago obviously, she just mentioned it to me one day out of the blue when the subject of rape came up. No one else seems to know, my husband, his siblings, his father etc. Similar happened to my mum and her friend though my mum managed to get away. Nothing was done to the guy as his mum was a nice old lady and no-one wanted to upset her. Don't know if vigilante revenge was ever carried out in these cases by the families etc. Ah, the good old days.

I thought it was an unusually negative angle to take on what I see as innocent chat as well BOF, but I believe it's relevant in a discussion on the normalisation of sexual assault.

If it's possible for intentions to be misinterpreted in a complimenting a child situation (and I thought a bit sexualised), it'd also be possible for it to happen with regard to a sexual assault.

Maybe the OP misinterpreted their behaviour as being OK (because nobody challenged them on it) and minimised it because it just seemed to be high jinks and part of the interactions between men and women?

There are lots of situations where children and adults don't 'notice' they've been assaulted (like sibling sexual abuse) and it's only later on they reassess their initial filing of the situation as 'normal'.

So many threads on here seem to say the same thing at the moment, that a woman's body is not hers. From those who can't get what they want in bed to being groped walking down the street to having to please her husband whenever he wants. Wtf is going on in 2011. We must challenge this at every turn. Where to start? Normalization in the media? The men we know and the children we shape.....

Things HAVE improved, what happended to poor sozzled MIL would not be tolerated now

But its hard as one the one hand we want to teach kids that this behaviour is not acceptable, but in parallel we are bombarded by images of sexily dressed girls wherever we look. I just dont know if this fuels the flames?

But as with everything, education is the key and it has to come from parents first and then school second

But I bet you if a boy comes from a broken home with a father that watches porn and reads the daily star, he will think the 32F girl in class B is fair game

i think part of thinking it can never change is to do with not facing who are the perpetrators. if you don't name the group who do this and tackle them then no it can never change. if you are afraid to name the group or are prevented from naming the group then they can't be tackled. if you can't name then then effectively you remain silent.

no one wants to hear but it is men doing this. that's the group and that's the group that has to be tackled. we can dress it up how we like but it's an act of males. pretending it's random strangers hiding in alleys, alien, unidentifiable types will not get things to change.

Yes but when you name the group, you get accused of man-hating.

When people say that there's a problem with white working class males viz unemployment etc., no-one thinks that they hate all white working class males, they're just pointing out dynamics which disproportionately affect that group versus other groups. When they talk about gun crime and the specifics of how that affects young black males versus other groups, people don't think they hate young black youths or even tht they mean ALL young black youths.

It's only when men are named as a group, that the baying about hating starts. We must not speak.

yep but without naming them you can't tackle the problem.

and the fear of being called a man hater (daring to name a problem with men) is just a means of control.

and when you're talking about boys in school learning and repeating this behaviour then you have to look at adult men in schools and beyond and what role they're taking in socially reproducing these dynamics.

the trouble is that not only do you have to name the perpetrators group it is also that group that can put a stop to things by ceasing to reproduce this version of masculinity and actively teaching another way.

so not only do we have to name them and point the finger where it belongs they have to acknowledge it themselves, concede that it is unacceptable and actively go about changing it.

men need to change this. it's men who need to be shouting this is unacceptable, this has to stop etc. it's a male problem that can only be solved by men themselves.

pippi - did you get a reply to your facebook message?

I don't know, I think women also have to wisen up. We continue to be obsessed with objectifying ourselves as sexual objects and for many women/ girls, they feel that that is their only worth. It has to be approached on two fronts.

we're talking about children here sozzled. children doing nothing other than going to school in the uniforms prescribed for them. what exactly do you see them being able to do through wisening up that would prevent them being groped, molested and harrassed?

I think that men have been so conditioned by society and their elders that the low-level sexual assaults/harrassment that some of them mete out to women (I'm thinking the comments about the FIL commenting on his DIL's breasts/the FIL photographing his DIL's cleavage) is not seen as anything other than a bit of harmless fun. If a woman actually stopped them and said "You have just sexually assaulted me, did you realise?!" I bet half of them would be horrified at being accused of sexual assault. This is something that has been ingrained in a lot of males for generations and it might take generations to put it right.

On a different scale, I didn't think that it was racist to call the shop the "paki shop" until I reached the grand old age of 12 and started going to school and making friends with the "pakis" and I realised how inherently wrong it was. It was, and still is for some, acceptable to say things like this because a lot of people are so used to hearing it that it becomes popular vernacular. It might not be meant with any malice but it does untold harm and needs to be addressed.

Yes, one reason I knew the 'good guys' out there, like my male friends, male friends in my family, and my lovely husband is that they would be horrified by this, and on the rare occasion they did see someone pester me unwantedly and physically, say in a club, would challenge the person/intervene. So: I know not all men think like this or act like this and think it's just fine and dandy. I see it more as an out-dated (as groping by your male boss was quite normal when I was 16, now in my current workplace, it is just unthinkable behaviour), and a minority thing. I hope none of my male friends would ever think it ok to unzip a girl's dress and laugh at her, or pester someone physically on the dance floor, or say something lewd in the girl's hearing, or flash someone; having been out with them on nights out for 20 plus year, I know this is not normal behaviour for decent men which is why it has to be called out when it is seen.

i do think it is men who have to lead a cultural shift. it's them who have to show disgust and contempt towards other men who treat women like this. them who have to come down like a ton of bricks on boys who assault, harass and make uncomfortable their female peers, them who need to model a form of masculinity that escews this kind of behaviour.

women, much as they try, can't be the only providers of positive role models for boys. it needs men speaking up against this, men that boys admire and look up to. much as the black community needs positive role models to counter the gangster rap bullshit being pumped at young black men. it's in every ethnic group that there is a hunger for positive male role models to step up and challenge the norms.

it's definitely from within that this needs to change imo. there is only so much we can do without decent men joining with us - we've raised the concerns over and over what we now need is men to take up those concerns and act on them. we can nit pick around what we can do differently, how we can respond differently etc etc but it is the male group who need to change this.

yes. i guess that's my conclusion - that there is only so far a woman's movement or feminism can go without decent men recognising that their humanity is to be found in changing things too and therefore joining the cause to change masculinity and ask boys/men to step up and be full human beings with developed empathy and consideration. it isn't just women who need to grow and overcome behaviours and limits and move into new spheres but men too, men more so now.

so where are the good men stepping up and being on the right side? because it's not about men v women it's about fairness and decent human living v exploitation and sexual thuggery.

sermon over sorry for rant.

sAf I think that may well be true. But how? The education thing has its limits, because this isn't a problem of ignorance so much as a problem of power. There are examples of the dominant group or members of it voluntarily giving up control but only under pressure. The pressure can come from individuals but that is very atomised and dispersed, so ineffective. How does it get on the (small p) political public agenda?

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