to think this poster is a heap of sexist woman-blaming SHIT?

[QueenOfFlamingEverything]

Here - a nice bit of misogynism from the police in Wales.

How about a big poster suggesting helpfully "Rape. Don't be a rapist. Use your dick sensibly. Rapists feature in 100% of rapes??"

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo -sadly no I don't but I suspect that the actual (as opposed to reported) rape rate it is probably higher than the UK. The point being that what a woman drinks or wears has no bearing on whether she gets raped but that attitudes towards women does.

ah yes, i thought you were coming from it from the opposite angle and assuming the rate would be lower. no i agree with you, it could well be higher due to the increased lack of respect for women and higher expectation of being able to control us.

Squeaky
Actually, I don't think that anyone on this thread would put themselves at risk to prove a point. That is not the issue here.

The issue is that we are being told that to prevent being raped, we must not go out drinking, must not walk home alone, must not go in an unregistered minicab.

When most rapes occur when women are at home, or in the company of a trusted friend/relative.

We are not daft, and we would not walk home alone simply to prove a point.

But to say that if we did (for whatever reason) that it would then be our own fault should be be raped - that is totally unreasonable.

And continuing along that line.

What about a woman who is driving somewhere and her car breaks down. She gets out of the car to see what she can do, and a friendly guy comes over and asks if he can help.

Instead of helping her, he drags her into the bushes and rapes her.

Was it her fault for having an unreliable car?

Should we have posters about this?

Don't be a victim. Get your car services. Prevent rape

Not every woman who is alone at night, and vulnerable, is so because of her own actions and decisions.

Sorry to not follow the thread of chat here, but it honestly makes too depressing reading.
I was raped in a friend's house - by their housemate. I was not fall-over drunk, I was dressed "modestly," I did nothing to suggest I wanted sex. Since then I will never change my conviction that the ONLY person responsible for rape is the cunting rapists.
I should be able to live my life, doing whatever and going wherever I like without fear of rape. If this BASIC HUMAN REQUIREMENT cannot be met, it's not me who needs to change my fucking behaviour....

none of this advice about alcohol is any help to babies, women in conflict zone type countries, children, men in prison and any other group of people vulnerable to these crimes is it

that is not the sector that they are trying to get the message over to though..

Look at this example..

it is coming up to christmas, office parties where people have too much to drink, their usual inhibitions are lowered, along with their judgement, and the nice friendly bloke who they say hello to in the lift most days is suddenly a lot more interesting... so they take a chance, that if they had been sober, they may not have done... and end up very much regretting it the next day.

Now they are wondering do they report it, everyone saw them together, everyone knows how pissed she was... she cant even remember most of the night. She knows she probably didnt consent to sex, but she knows that it is going to be her word against his, and he will probably get away with it even if she went to the police.

She probably wishes she had taken more notice of that poster that suggested she drink less, but its a bit late now.

That ^ will happen. That scenario will not happen to me, because I do not drink much when I am out. I would like to think that some women will actually think about the message that poster sends out, and think twice before going out and getting shit-faced.

Nothing to do with the law, nothing to do with it not being her fault she got raped, because it isnt. But it is her fault she got so drunk that she didnt know what she was really doing. She can never undo what has happened. Ever. NO, it wasnt her fault she got raped, that is 100% the actions of a man who took advantage of the fact this woman was pissed.

Squeaky - I am sorry to hear about what happened to your friend. Is it possible though that this has influenced your point of view?

Surely the only reason in your scenario that she was raped is that she was with a rapist?

"that is not the sector that they are trying to get the message over to though.. "

they shouldn't be aiming the message at any of those people who are all victims. the message should be aimed directly at rapists!!! this is the point we are all trying to make.

I fail to see how giving statistical information about the likelihood of rape situations is blaming the victim. Its like saying giving statistical information about how to avoid car accidents is blaming the driver.

That is the most perverse logic I think I've ever heard I think.

Squeaky said: "But Queen, nobody is saying ALL rapes are the same, because they arent. Most rapes are unavoidable, some rapes are avoidable."

Bollocks.

Rape is rape. ALL rape is avoidable, by rapists.

And here lies the problem I think.

Because posters who spout this shit really don't think some rapes are actually rapes. I've seen those same posters on other threads, refusing to accept that an OP was raped.

It's bloody terrifying that posters like this could be on juries, or have any responsibility at all for parenting the next generation .

"I don't think it's any different to the 'don't be a victim of car theft, hide your belongings' or 'don't be a victim of distraction burglary, beware callers at the door' type posters."

and what advice is given to people to avoid car theft? to lock their car? fit an alarm? how can a woman lock her vagina?
hide your belongings? most men know that women have vaginas so unless you are suggesting women disguise their gender then how on earth can they hide the fact they have vaginas?
dont be a victim of distraction burglary? how is that the same as being raped?

How drunk is too drunk? Is being a little bit tipsy and giggly ok or should all women be completely teetotal to avoid the risk of rape?

Of course nobody is saying that getting falling down drunk is ok but that is because most people would agree that it is not sensible to be falling down drunk whether you are male/female out/at home for a variety of reasons. Getting raped whilst being falling down drunk I am guessing would be the least of your worries because you are more likely to get run over/fall and hit your head/choke on your vomit etc.

These posters should be worded better, for instance using the words; to minimise, safety measures etc, but i think that from an advice POV there should be posters. I doubt that these are aimed at 25+ feminists.

I have 3 DD's, my middle one, as a teenager, put herself at stupid risk, she went through a period where she wouldn't listen to me, teenagers think that they are invincible. Campaigns back up what is being said to them.

I have been out and about and heared discussions amongst teenagers after seeing posters and they do promote discussion. The same can be said for programmes like Holly Oaks etc.

There should be work being done with young men, but the reasons why people rape (women do to) are complex, it's a bit like saying lets get rid of SS and target child abusers instead.

Squeaky
You say that this scenario will never happen to you as you don't drink that much when you are out.

What else don't you do when you are out?

Never speak with men, laugh with men, flirt with men - cause that could be seen as "leading them on"

Never wear a short skirt or revealing clothes.

Never walk home alone - even a short distance - cause you could be putting yourself at risk.

Could you imagine if we asked men to give the same assurances. That they should not flirt with women or have a good time. That they should not have a drink or get drunk.

That if they were to get mugged on their way home, it would be their own fault.

Windsor, as I have already asked others, what do YOU suggest is the solution to effectively cut down on the number of rapes, particularly the 9% of rapes that are committed by strangers?

I have parented two girls. I have taught them to take care of themselves and not to arrogantly assume that they are safe when they are out at night. I instil in them the importance of not making themselves more of a target than necessary.

Yes, perhaps my views are clouded because of what happened to me, and what happened to my friend. But these events did happen. These events could have been avoided. By our own errors of judgement both myself and my friend were attacked. Seperate occasions and incidents. She ended up dead. I was lucky.

ok i am going to make this as simple as possible. we are all parents here. well most of us anyway.

when you have teenagers (i haven't yet) but i would assume i would give them some basic safety advice when they start going out. Things like take your phone with you, text me at this time. stay with your friends and stay in well lit public places.

I will say things like this to give them some ideas of the dangers and ways to prevent becoming victims of various crimes such as rape, muggings or worse.

Now in the same stance this does not mean that i would for one second blame them for becoming a victim if such a things were to happen. That is not the point of the advice. The advice is there to help them avoid danger.

it will not always work, but it will severely reduce their chances of becomming victims.

That is what the poster is saying. Do not put yourself in the position that makes it easier for rapists to attack you. It is never the victims fault when they get raped. But if they take heed of the poster it has a good message which i am baffled by why you are all so against it

you are taking something not even implied from the poster and twisting what it is saying for no apparent reason.

I just think it's not very helpful to promote the idea that this is something that someone you don't or barely know will do when you are, out and slightly off guard when in reality it is far far more likely to be your partner or the partner of a relative or friend or a male relative or friend of yours when you are safely inside a house, hotel or workplace and totally off guard. Statistical likelihood and 'stranger attacks woman outside' don't go together at all do they?

It's not arrogance to feel safe when out alone at night, as opposed to inside a building with a man you know, it's common sense.

Squeaky
9% of rapes committed by strangers.

Think about it.

You are not stopping rapes by telling your girls to take care.

You are reducing the risk to your girls.

The rapist will move on to a different girl.

Not less rapes, but one that does not directly affect you. Unless, like your daughters you know the victim.

These posters don't prevent rape.

Mme Lindor, yes I will talk with men, have a laugh with them. I dont allow men who are not in my group of friends to buy me drinks. If offered I will politely refuse.

I wear short skirts, low cut tops..

I do not walk home alone. Ever.

I do not care how unlikely it is that I will be attacked. It is never going to be 100% certain that I would not be attacked. I dont know who could have been watching me all night, and who may follow me out of the pub. Who has heard my name being called, therefore could shout me, and I would wonder if I knew them.. which is what can and has happened to women who have been attacked.

The poster could say that being drunk may make you more vunerable in the eyes of a rapist, but as has been said, everyone is more vunerable when having had a drink so that would hardly be news.

Some of the dv posters are very good , they ones where they provide the excuses an abuser may use and why they are unacceptable. And why those being abused are not at fault.

A poster advising what is rape would be much more hard hitting I think, for men and women. We need to stamp out this perception that rape is a man attacking a pissed woman down an alley way when she is wearing heels and a skirt.

We need society as a whole to see what rape is, that it is throughout society, not just pockets where if you act like a good girl you will avoid being raped. That rape is non consensual sex, of any form, and not just sex when drunk by a stranger.