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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

460 replies

neolara · 05/10/2011 18:40

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

OP posts:
WidowWadman · 09/10/2011 15:22

Oh, I so want Attenborough to be my grandpa!

madhairday · 09/10/2011 15:37

Just so you know sgb I didn't report that post as I was endeavouring to live and let live. However it did upset me and somebody obviously felt it was a personal attack enough to be reported. You are blurring the lines I think between attacking Christianity and attacking Christians. You know I'm fairly laid back but think this prob did go too far. Hey ho.

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 16:23

I didn't report either, I can't remember what it actually said, but I do think it a bit rich that SGB says at one point that what people call their imaginary friend isn't her concern because she is obviously very bothered by it. If you do a search for the words 'imaginary friends' posted by SGB you will find that she has used them in 110 discussions Hmm

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 16:27

And sometimes up to 8 or 9 posts per discussion. I can't see why it matters what someone else thinks.

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 16:28

Live and let live.

curlycreations · 09/10/2011 17:32

i'd keep my mouth shut -enjoy the group-if you can find it in yourself to keep going - others may like the songs -and it would be a shame if you stopped that happening or made the organisers feel bad when they are trying to do good-
i do understand as i couldnt see myself going to a play group that was influencing some religions

GrimmaTheNome · 09/10/2011 17:37

Oh yes... I remember what it was and I'd agree it overstepped the mark.
TBH I wish SGB would use some of her favourite phrases a little more like seasoning - a bit of pepper can enliven a debate, too much makes it indigestible and distracts from meatier issues.

....anyone want a bash at explaining John 9:3 for instance?

WidowWadman · 09/10/2011 17:45

Grimma I had a google - apparently the guy's blindness meant that Jesus could perform a miracle in alleviating it. Or it's one of these faith-testing things, like Job. Whether that makes it any less cruel, I'm not sure about.

madhairday · 09/10/2011 18:02

Grimma...oh I can't keep away Grin

Hmm, well. It seems to me that in this passage Jesus was simply turning peoples' perceptions round. It was a commonly held view in the OT and NT times that your parents/ancestors sins had consequences for you, ie they were to blame if you were sick. Jesus goes beyond this. There is little point bickering about whose fault it is that this man is blind; let's look at what is happening now, and what is happening now is that he is healed and this brings glory to Jesus. So it almost reads like an opportunist thing - Jesus uses this chance to show God's power - so not saying that God made him blind so this would happen, but more like it's no ones fault he is blind, but look at how his life is now transformed.

I love this, because Jesus turns tables. He hammers away the ignorance in one fell swoop and just does the healing. That's why I can't get my head around those christians who say that sickness is due to something you have done/family/God has done. It's not. It just happens. It's just consequence of the whole world being in an utter mess. Yes, it comes down to selfishness, and sin. It's kind of one reason it all makes sense to me. What if there was no accounting for sin? What if no accounting for genocide and ethnic cleansing and the holocaust and rape and child abuse? To me it makes sense that one day all will be reconciled, all will be accounted for. But that's another subject...Grin

I do realise this will not be satisfactory for you but it pleases me to explore it in any case, so there you go :)

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 18:59

The only person on here who really makes me want to explore religion ,and perhaps do an Alpha course, is SGB. I'm sure that isn't her intention.

GrimmaTheNome · 09/10/2011 19:49

MHD - you're right - entirely unsatisfactory.Wink It replaces one misconception (illness being someones fault) with explanations which if they stick close to the text are along the lines WW indicated, which seems pretty perverse; otherwise the have to do as you've done which is to recast it into what he should have said, to make it halfway acceptable.

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned, he's just got an illness." Thats the simple truth. God is uneccessary to the explanation, introducing god into it just makes it all a lot more complicated.

solidgoldbrass · 09/10/2011 21:17

WHy do I keep attacking superstitious bullshit and the people stupid enough to believe it? Because it's harmful. Yes the mild beneficial effects of bringing comfort to some peope when they are said are all very well, but the privileging of superstition allows for institutionalised discrimination and has a negative impact on public health.

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 21:41

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and they are entitled to have them respected. Life would be much better if people were not so narrow minded enough to think they are right for anyone, beyond themsleves.

Fixture · 09/10/2011 22:10

SGB it's quite possible to have harmful institutionalised discrimination without religion, and conversely, extra inclusivity due to how some people believe Jesus wishes us to live. Therefore it's not faith in God which is harmful, it's the actions of some human beings, some of whom use religion as an excuse, but if religion wasn't there as a cover they'd pick something else. Equally, religion doesn't make people perfect and so of course there will still be plenty of room for human error.

Himalaya · 09/10/2011 22:13

There is no entitlement to respect for beliefs.

Can you imagine how AIBU? would work if there was??

'AIBU to xyz?'
'I couldn't possibly say out of respect for you'
'I'm sure that must be right for you'
Zzzzzzzz....

MillyR · 09/10/2011 22:26

This is a bit off the point of the thread, but we seem to have drifted off the topic anyway...

What would be the secular equivalent of a religious upbringing? Would it be if your family or teacher kept insisting to you that there was a song playing when there wasn't and if you just tried a bit harder you would be able to sing the song? Wouldn't that give people psychological problems, where they started to imagine there was a song, or where they felt terrible failures because they couldn't hear it?

Or perhaps religious people tell their kids that some people can feel God's presence and other's can't, so they don't have that issue to worry about.

solidgoldbrass · 09/10/2011 22:26

Exoticfruits: people are entitled to believe that the BNP are right, that coffee enemas cure cancer and that Katie Price is a literary genius. Other people are entitled to disagree with and laugh at these and any other beliefs.

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 22:33

I think that you are obsessed with the subject SGB -I really think that you need to let go of the anger-draw a line under what caused it. You certainly make religion seem very exciting-if I was your DC I would most definitely want to explore it.

cantspel · 09/10/2011 22:39

Maybe i should ask why people are stupid enough to follow a life style that includes one night stands , groups sex and a general sexual free for all but i wont as that implies that i think people who do have that life style are stupid.

sparklythings · 09/10/2011 22:43

Um.. sorry to point out the obvious but it's a toddler group run in a church! What the heck do you expect?!
Oh and YABU. If you don't like it, don't go. Simple as.

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 22:43

Freedom of thought is very important-the last thing we need are the 'thought police' telling us what we can and can't think. Or perhaps we should all jump to attention- SGB has spoken-the oracle-who must be right because she has made up her mind for us all-Oh Wise One!!

exoticfruits · 09/10/2011 22:44

Well done sparkly-we seem to be way off topic!

sparklythings · 09/10/2011 22:48

Would have read the whole thread but saw 17 pages and thought I can't be arsed! [grin}
Just a bit agog that someone would huff and puff at -shock, horror, religious songs being sung in a church!

WidowWadman · 09/10/2011 22:52

MillyR I don't understand your idea of secular upbringing - Personally, as a humanist I'm raising my children to learn that the world is weird and wonderful in itself without any need to bring a supernatural being into it - for example a rainbow is light shattered by droplets of water - isn't that fantastic in itself? Do you need a creator for that? There is no songs only some can hear, as it all can be explained by science - and isn't that fantastic, and exciting and brilliant?

MillyR · 09/10/2011 22:55

WW, I meant it as a hypothetical situation. The secular equivalent of somebody telling children that they should be able to feel God's presence would be to tell children that they should be able to hear a non-existent song.

I am not saying secular people do that; in fact most secular people would consider it abusive to tell children that they should be able to experience something which didn't exist.