Muslim children and dress at school

[arinita]

I volunteered on Friday at my child's school (about 50% Muslim) and actually got quite upset at how restrictive the clothes were that a lot of the girl children were sent to school dressed in. It was a really hot day and most of the Muslim girls had on a really tight headscarf, covering their chin and most of their forehead and long sleeves. About half of them also had a long shift thing that came to the floor. They looked hot and uncomfortable and weren't able to join in the other children's games as they couldn't run/climb in the clothes they had on. I asked the class teacher and she said that they couldn't enforce the uniform policy if there were religious objections. Is this true? Can't they insist on health and safety grounds? Some of these little kids just looked miserable as they were so hot and the one who was trying to climb the spiders web and kept getting caught up in her long robe about broke my heart. Is there a real religious why under 10yr old children have to be covered at all times? It seems so unfair and horrible for the children. And sexist.

I don't understand why we all accept that little girls should be treated this way because of a cultural sensitivities.

I really, really don't get it. Why misogyny is supported by the state. I makes me angry.

SwimLittleFish her oh might hail from that neck of the woods

Whoa.....I wasn't tarring every man, Muslim or otherwise, with that same broad brush. Nor every Muslim woman is caked in make up...
I was merely pointing out the very visible hypocrisy within this religion and some followers, the same symbols that divide and gte used for this end are the same that some follow to the letter.

Brambly. I hope your school is secondary.

I can't believe that thing about a temporary wife. Can't the men do without sex for a while. I bet the left at home wives are not allowed to take a temporary husband. The double standards in Islam cause me a problem and men seem to be treated like idiots who cannot control their sexual urges

I would have thought Islam would be very against sex outside of marriage in the same way fundemental christians are.

To muslims Sex is taboo outside of marriage hence why men beent the rules with muta marriage. It is also ok to have sex with slaves but for the most part there is not many muslims who keep slaves in this day and age.

Muta marriages are still used in egypt by the young lads who have their western older women. They use muta marriages as a way to get round the law that a unmarried egyptian man is not allowed to book a hotel room with a woman.

mutah marriae is not permitted by the four main schools of sunni thouht, most sunnis think it is despicable.

when i worked for WILKINSON they provided a head scarf with the uniform, it was a very nice one too.

you may feel it isnt well recieved outside the muslim community, but the thin is i woudnt define my community as solely muslim, i mean my family has a multitude of race and reliions in it and they are my community? my friends are of all races and reliions, and they are my community? my neihbours are from different backrounds, they are my community? and none of them have a problem with it, and yes we have frank discussions about it, and they would say if they had an issue, or felt by wearin what i wear i was not interatin, or it was harmful to my career, etc etc, but they dont.

why do you assume that as a muslim my community has to be only muslims? like i said here it is accepted and noone thinks twice about it!! if someone is wearin sari or shalwar kameese or abaya, or nierian dress, or somalian dress, or hotpants or hari krishna dress, or turban (even women) it is all normal.

our society is a salad bowl not a meltin pot! :)

the same way i wont tick an ethnicity on the forms as i dont feel a sense of belonin to solely and ethnic roup, or i dont feel defined by my ethicity.

"my abayah is my freedom not my shackles. i love it"

Sorry but no, I'm not buying it.

"but of course, as a muslim woman i suppose i cant think for myself"

The only reason I would wonder if you can think for yourself at all is because you seem to believe I don't know any Muslim women, which is odd because we have had this conversation on many threads.

For the record (again), I know loads of Muslim women who can think for themselves. They make up my female relatives, all my girlfriends from elementary school up until graduate school, all women in their families, and pretty much every female I have ever been friendly with in the predominantly Sunni Muslim country I have been brought up in, including my devout Muslim grandmother whose deceased husband was a Hajji. None of these women wear the abaya, and in fact, all would strongly disagree with you that the "necessity" to be covered head to toe in a black curtain is so clear-cut.

Do you really believe you are "thinking for yourself" when you hide in a black bag because some mullahs told you to? You know, the Sunni authority guys who are in such a great agreement that it is absolutely essential?

i think i have already said, i wear it as i feel comfortable in it, personally i feel freer in it and i believe my reliion requires it of me.

i understand there are differences of opinions in reliion, thats fine.

bein a haji doesnt make you devout btw, but many members of your family are probably better muslims then me, and more practicin then me.

see why is it that people who choose not wear it are capable of weighing up the opinions and deciding for themselves, but people who chose to wear it arent capable?

anyway im not going to change your mind, and your not going to do anything apart from announce my opinions,beliefs and feelings to be invalid.

no mullahs told me to btw, when i put it on, i didnt know the rulings on it, i just felt it was the right thing to do. and in later study and research i found that i believed the evidence for the wearing of abaya to be greater then the evidence for not wearin it.

if you want to discuss in detail the fiqh of hijab then it would probably be better to do it on a muslim forum.

however i am in no way invalidating your families right to follow an opinion that they believe in and feel comfortable with.

Driftes a fair way OT haven't we?

Surely the OP's point is about parents forcing their prejudices upon their children to the childrens' disadvantage at school?

nailak I don't think the issue is you wearing it in your own home in your own time just as some tarty women wear very little clothing but

I think it's a bloody cheek to try and force employers and schools to allow to wear it

I don't care if people want to wear a sack over your head with bunny ears sticking off the top

1- don't force you kids to wear the get up
2- don't be forcing employers or schools to tolerate your stet up
3-until their is agreement across the bored I tired of hearing its article of faith be because clearly its not unlike say a turban which is widely accepted once baptised its to be worn

Surely the idea of a school uniform is that all kids look the same and show what school they belong too.

I went to a C of E primary in the 70's.

I had a lot of muslim girls in my class...they all wore the same uniform as me.

Shirt, tie etc...none of the girls wore head coverings or long modesty clothing.

Why are the little girls wearing this type outfit these days?

The UK doesn't ban much which is why most people think we're one of the best places on earth and want to flock here. We;re always been a pretty tolerant place. However we have the freedom to deride those who choose to wear ridiculous clothes and I hope most of us whatever our religion or culture in the UK would fight to defend the right of those whose views which we abhor to express those views.

Most Muslims know there is nothing in the Koran requiring women to wear clothes which means they cannot run around, ride bikes and lead a normal life just as foot binding in rural China used to inhibt girls and hobble skirts and corsets int he English past. Bit by bit cultures are becoming less sexist and women can wear what they like but it behoves us all to seek to persuade those still wearing constricting clothes to point out the error of their ways to them and seek to ensure their daughters abandon such clothing.

State schools can decide what children wear and that can be quite freeing for Muslim girls who really want more British culture but are pressured by fathers and mothers at home and there are a fair free Musli mothers my age - late 40s - who bemoan their daughters' adoption of more radical ridiculous dress. However the young always rebel - it's how they are. In due course they calm down.

I can only go off what I would wear in the summer. As a non-muslim.

I wear a maxi dress with a long sleeved linen top over it, a massive wide brimmed straw hat with a chiffon wrap over it and tied under my chin (I look an absolute TREAT lol) and am not hot, rather cool in fact.

So it doesn't bother me overly to see a child covered up in such a way.

I DO have issues with the whole 'religious children' issue, regardless of what religion they are, but we all bring up our children according to our beliefs.

YANBU. I think they should wear the school uniform. Surely they can modify it slightly as some posters suggest. It's parental choice about religion but it is the school's choice about uniform. Surely they can comprimise somehow. It doesn't sound practical the way you describe.

I have a problem with imposing restrictive clothing on children for religious reasons, although the religion in question does not require any such thing at that point, just so these children will be OK with wearing it in their teens, when it is required.

Anything at you need to be accustomed to as a child so you won't revolt against it when you can think for yourself is not there to free you. Quite the opposite, in all likelihood.

What happens nowadays if any random parent just says "I'm not dressing my child in the school uniform"

Presumably that's okay?

Riven - I agree with you re "different muslims have different interpretations". Good to see that you disagree with nailak's assertion that Sunni world is in agreement that abaya is a necessity in Islam.

The hijab has become a marker of Muslim identity and there seems to be quite an aggressive attitude to Muslim women who don't wear the hijab. There are no grey areas apparently. It's very black and white according to the preachers at the moment. This is why you'll see young girls in skinny jeans, tight tops, make up and a hijab.
It makes no sense but the point is that they have their hijab and are identified as Muslims.

For women who want a complete sense of belonging to the Muslim community, there is no better way than to dress accordingly. Of course, if you dress your daughters accordingly then that shows what a pious family you are.

I have a gut reaction against all-covering Muslim dress, as I do against most forms of overt religious dress. I can accept that an adult is capable of making an informed decision about what to wear, its consequences and so on, even if I don't agree with it. However, I hate seeing it being imposed on children, for the following reasons.

1. it is very "othering" and sets them apart from their differently-backgrounded (if that is a word) peers, in a very visible way. I feel children should be encouraged to see each other as equals and not as segregated groups. This doesn't just apply to Muslim dress, it applies to Jewish dress and that of Christian sects like the Plymouth Brethren.

1. it makes children more likely to experience prejudice. I consider this to be very true for Jewish dress and headcoverings; I used to live near a Jewish school in Nottingham and heard insults thrown at boys wearing yarmulke, when to all intents and purposes they were normal, well-behaved boys who would not be noticed otherwise.

1. It reinforces gender differences in a very visible way. That post about "preparing" little girls for covering in later life made me feel a bit sick. It is rare to see little boys in Muslim dress.

1. It is often impractical. Despite the protests of some here, it is more difficult to run and play in a long robe or floor-length skirt. Certain types of headscarf restrict peripheral vision, which has implications for road safety.

1. In schools, it reinforces an "us and them" mentality when one group is allowed to break the rules, while others are not.

Onagar - Presumably, it is OK as long as you can claim religious reasons.

If parents were to dress their 8 yo in leather hotpants and black lace top because family believes children are sexual beings (and should dress accordingly), social services would be all over them.

However, when parents dress their 8 yo in black curtains because family believes children are sexual beings (and should cover up so as not to arouse men's sexual urges), that's somehow OK.

These people can and should be told that children are not sexual beings and should not be forced into adult ways of thinking/covering/acting.

Just because a practice is cultural, doesn't make it right. I don't know why false consciousness is a phrase that seems to have fallen away, because I think it is very applicable to these discussions.

The reason why there aren't threads about what Jews wear is because prepubescent Jewish girls are not veiled or covered. In fact it is much easier to spot a religious Jewish boy or man. Unless you are familiar with the look of an ultra-religious woman (skirt below knees, slightly thicker hair, that is wig, than normal) you might think the woman looked slightly odd, but not know why.

And I agree with the smallclanger that it is othering. I think maybe we need to think again about having a public space where we are all citizens, and keeping culture to the private spheres. ( I am not completely sure about this, just something I have been thinking about). We certainly need to stop fetishising culture.

We're a pretty free culture which is why I hope we don't go the way of the French. If you ban things people want them more.

We have some families locally who I think are Bretheen and the girls never cut their hair, wear head scarves and have long skirts. They are almost 100% blonde and look very cute out of Little House on the Prairie. Virtually all parents in some way or other condition their children in some way or other. Every housewife is saying to their children women are economically inactive and earn nothing and serve men. Obviously I would like to stamp out that model but I would not ban it. As long as they don't break English law then we should let it be but we ought to point out where we think it's a bit silly. Eg there are heaps of things you cannot do in long skirts.