Muslim children and dress at school

[arinita]

I volunteered on Friday at my child's school (about 50% Muslim) and actually got quite upset at how restrictive the clothes were that a lot of the girl children were sent to school dressed in. It was a really hot day and most of the Muslim girls had on a really tight headscarf, covering their chin and most of their forehead and long sleeves. About half of them also had a long shift thing that came to the floor. They looked hot and uncomfortable and weren't able to join in the other children's games as they couldn't run/climb in the clothes they had on. I asked the class teacher and she said that they couldn't enforce the uniform policy if there were religious objections. Is this true? Can't they insist on health and safety grounds? Some of these little kids just looked miserable as they were so hot and the one who was trying to climb the spiders web and kept getting caught up in her long robe about broke my heart. Is there a real religious why under 10yr old children have to be covered at all times? It seems so unfair and horrible for the children. And sexist.

chunky - Yes some schools have horrendous uniforms as do some workplaces. But abayas are not a uniform to put on for 1 part of your life and then discard them, so imo the comparison isn't valid. Abayas are supposed to be worn all the time in public and in private when males are present who are not immediate family.

That does indeed seem heavy

I think that it's surprising what you can get used to though - all the moroccans (male or female) where I lived in southern spain wore floor length things a lot like that, over their normal clothes, and the men's ones were made of lambswool and had hoods!

Having lived in tropical countries for most of the last 10 years I walk around even in this weather with a jumper (my inlaws think I'm crazy).

I think it can be hard to distinguish sensibly between traditional dress and oppressive dress

"Any way sadly for many of these Extream families their daugters can nly work in Asian companies as this style of wear thank god dose not work in the moder biritish work place what a waist of a young girls mind."

Although I hate to see young girls in abayas, I am more than happy to employ women who wear abayas. Currently I manage and appointed 2 staff who wear abayas. They look very hot when the weather is hot, but their dress has no impact on the job they both do.

We all need vitamin D and being covered up so much brings health risks. It's sad but many Asian and Muslim children have severe vitamin deficiency and much is due to lifestyle/dress.

Yes vitamin d deficiency will I am sure be an issue.

When I have seen abayas close up they look more like long outdoor coats than a robe really. And yes I am sure you can get used to wearing it. But like the OP I feel sorry for young girls who are made to wear it and don't have a choice in the matter.

Be a very different story if you were in the nursing business or looking to hire a police women

I would think it would be suitable for a pe teacher or a personal trainer to be wearing this get up.

I could go on and on were, wearing this type of dress is not on thats why certain jobs have strict uniform codes

Working in a office type job is a different matter but their are only so many of them and I would hate to loose a pontional surgan or pe tea her because her father is medevial and backward

Agree wearing it will restrict the jobs a woman can do. It may be the girls mother who is insisting a child wears the abaya, its not automatically the father.

Of course it's sexist - but then, from my personal experience only the set up within the muslim families is also very sexist. I will probably get crucified for this but I don't think religion is a good enough reason not to wear the same school uniform as everyone else. I just don't. If it was a muslim faith school and the uniform had been set to include those items then fine, otherwise no.
.

Couldn't really care less about headscarves, but ankle length skirts are a serious impediment to a whole range of normal childhood behaviours, running, skipping, riding a bike, climbing up a climbing frame.....

Well, as has been pointed out: no theological reason for pre-pubescent girls to cover up. And in fact it is really rare to practically unheard of for this to happen in many Middle Eastern countries.

That having been said: if you are trying to argue that parents should not be able to determine which clothes their DC wear, you might find there's a whole rat tail of potential issues:

What about, for example, the synthetic fibre crap that catches fire if exposed to a flame half a mile away? Classical H&S issue! Should parents be able to dress their kids in this?

If so: what's the difference? Restrictive clothing doesn't kill - third degree burns do.

I'm not arguing in favour of religion, by the way, or in favour of being even more strict about it than theologically necessary. As an atheist I'm altogether in favour of getting rid of all religious beliefs.

The thing is, though: if you wish to restrict parents' ability to chose clothing for their DCs, you either have to be consistent or else it's simply discriminatory. If you don't: why complain?

Of course we could introduce a state impised uniform for all under 18 that would be mandatory. Might solve a great deal of other issues. I have a feeling it wouldn't be a popular idea for a whole variety of reasons, though.

If a parent chooses to send their child to a school with a specific uniform, then they ought to respect the rule and adhere to it. Presumably they knew about it when they chose to send their kids there.

I don't think that parents should be allowed to disregard school rules, if those rules were already in existence when they accepted the school place for their child. Otherwise, we could all disregard the rules which don't suit us. Anyone fancy a holiday in term time? Oh no, you can't do that, you get a fine.

I don't think anyone's religious views should take precedence over the rules the rest of the population has to adhere to.

Most of the muslim girls at my daughter's school tend toward tights/leggings and the summer dresses. One or two of the older girls wear a shalwaar kamiz (sp?) in school colours and those in year 6 usually have a headscarf too. We are a very mixed school, and it's only the mums in the playground who tend toward the more severe dress code.

YANBU
I absolutely hated seeing kids in the ME/Africa when I travelled dressed literally top to toe in black manmade fabrics in +35C. Mind you, girls only (boys were wearing short sleeves and not head cover). I find it very wrong.

Zanzibar shocked me.

People are all very friendly though...

I don't like seeing girls dressed in the abaya and being so restricted. I couldn't care less if it was clothing only worn for part of someone's life e.g. mosque,but as it has to be worn all the time in public I think it must have a big impact on girls lives.

But i don't think we should actually ban it. In the same way I don't like the full face veil and I think it cuts women off from their non muslim neighbours. But again I wouldn't want it banned.

It is imo perfectly possible to dislike something without forcing that person to comply with your wishes.

They look hot. Women I know who wear one, wear what looks like a long coat. Fine for most weather, but when it is very hot they look very hot too.

I disagree with girls being made to wear clothes liek this because

1. It's only girls that have to do it, and even then it's about parental choice, not religion!

2. If the want them to have an education in a state school, they should wear the same uniform as everyone else and adapt it if they really want skin to be covered. It's not hard

3. my biggest reason, it is one religion's way of saying they they are more modest, better, or closer to God than people who dress their way. That implies that those who do not wear these clothes are immodest (in a bad way), worse, or not as close to God. If not in fact, then at the ery least, in their opinion. There is no good reason why any little girl should be sent the message that they are not as good as someone else. It is disgusting.

It can be argued in many ways, peopel will say that they choose to dress their children in that way and it is no one else's business, and that it doesn't mean they think less of other people if they wear shorts and vest tops. But if even one little girl wonders if they aren't as good as the girl at the next table in the eyes of God because of the clothes she is wearing, then that is one child too many.

Wonder where the OP went? I always think it's odd when they don't participate in a discussion they've started. Weird.

This conversation has been going on for hours. Maybe the OP had to do something and couldn't sit on this forum for hours.

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but there are different types of fabric that can be worn in the heat that are quite cooling and cover at the same time.
I don't know any muslim parents that require their daughters to cover before puberty, nor have I ever seen any primary school girls wearing long robes, and I live in an area with a high muslim population.
I have seen a few wearing headscarves, but not usually when hot, since they are not required to do so.
Also, long sleeves and covering vulnerable sensitive skin, is a damn good idea imo, infact essential to health and safety.

ChunkyPickle all the moroccans (male or female) where I lived in southern spain wore floor length things a lot like that, over their normal clothes, and the men's ones were made of lambswool and had hoods!

I'm in Morocco, and I can assure you that many Moroccans do not wear djellabas (the floor-length things): maybe you just didn't notice the others, because they looked pretty much like the Spanish ?

On the original subject: here it is usually the poorest, least educated, families who send girls to primary school in headscarves, and (knee-length) dresses over trousers. But I have very rarely seen any girls dressed in floor length robes for school. One of DH's nieces (age 9) wears a djellaba and headscarf occasionally to go with her grandmother to mosque, but not for school.

I too feel sorry for girls who are forced to dress as OP describes. It's certainly not a religious obligation, and it's not traditional either in most Muslim countries.

We went through all this in the UK in the 1880s+. Girls wanted to ride bikes. Girls wanted to ride horses astride, not side saddle. Girls wanted to run and skip. Girls wanted to abandon corsets so they could breath and not faint and play a normal part in life. Girls wanted a skirt they would not fall over when they tried to run like their brothers.

Thankfully due to some very brave men and women we managed to get the laws ch anged. The Muslims and other cultures still with these sexist practices are just about 100 years behind us and will soon catch up particularly if they have chosen to live in our culture here.

Perhapsd they should try putting boys and men into these ridiculous clothes for 5 years and let girls wear men's clothes and see how the men enjoy the swap and make orthodox Jewish men wear wigs too.

Xenia, I misread your post as "we went through this is the 80s" so the bit about girls riding horses astride had me baffled for a second

I think school uniforms are pointless, but I'm used to most people saying I am wrong on this. That it is vital that all children dress the same for all kinds of reasons.

Except for Muslims? Don't they matter?