to be totally fucked off with the antisahm comments on here?

[slackers]

Wtaf are you only a good role model to your DC if you are in paid employment?
Why does someone only be valid in society if they earn?
Why should I work only to pay someone else do a job to look after my DC? wtaf is the logic in that?
ffs

No I agree not all jobs can be carved up easily but I guess that is part of the deal when 'you decide on your career and choice of partner. If you partner a man who wants children as much as you do and is equally capable of caring for a child' then you're likely to discuss this sort of thing before having babies. On the other hand if you pick a partner who has much higher earning power and who will expect you to look after everything at home while he pursues the dizzy heights with his career, then you may always feel it's barely worth you working, and you may find your children have a less hands on dad than if the roles are shared equally. At least nowadays there is a CHOICE about these things and women aren't expected to leave school at 16 and do a pin money job while the interesting jobs go to the men

Bang on the money there callmemrs.

I think it's sometimes easy to lose sight of teh amazing choices most of us enjoy that our mothers never could.

Wasn't so long ago women had to stop teaching on marriage and it wasn't until 1970 (?) that the Equal pay Act came in.

Do you know, since posting on this thread I have been made a job offer which is almost too good to refuse.

Choices indeed.

I wonder how far having a husband who was a teacher helped Xenia achieve?

I think there are certain jobs where it's almost impossible to make it work if both partners are going to be marked down for needing time off for low level domestic emergencies (nanny bolting abroad, nanny sick, all children and nanny sick etc.).

Xenia has said that men can succeed because there's a woman there to cover these things. I wondered a) if she could have managed without the support of her husband (perhaps she did, it's a question) and b) what practical suggestions she would have to make life work when both partners are genuinely equal in the job she started out in (ie. not her own boss).

I am not in any way minimising what's required of a teacher, simply recognising the difference in hours out of the home.

Teachers in the UK work very hard, and mostly do long hours but they have very little work-related travel, they never have work-related travel at short notice, they have predictable working hours, they have a degree of flexibility as to when and where they do some of their work (marking) and they have long holidays that mostly coincide with those of their children. So, all in all, quite family-friendly.

One of the biggest things holding women back is tolerating sexist men though. Childcare is not a woman's issue at all and as soon as you suggest it is then you make things harder for women.

I couldn't agree more, xenia.

I disagree wrt flexible working though - it doesn't have to be that way. Flexible working is ideally about work/life balance - the "life" bit shouldn't just mean children - it should mean golf/surfing/macramé/time with family (of any age) and friends/being able to wait at home to take a delivery....

Yellow two lawyers together is extremely hard.

DH and I tried. We really did. But the nature of the beast...

First we used a nursery but of course the twins got chicken pox one after the other. LOL. Parents stepped in for that one.
Then there was the time the judge on my trial decided we would sit until the expert evidence was finsihed. It was the right decision for the expert, the client, the taxpayer...but not for me. I had to call DH, pull him out of a meeting to collect the kids.
The final straw came when I had to tell a young client that her siblings had been made the subject of a closed adoption and she would never see them again. She was suicidal. I was worried about egtting out on time.

We knew we would have to get a live in nanny or one of us give up work. It was hard. I had just been asked to join the judiciary, DH had just been made head of London.

We twisted and turned that one and interviewd half a dozen nannies but the trouble is we are simple souls, working class at core. We weren't, unlike many of our contemporaries, raised with live in staff. Bloody hell, I clean up every morning before the housekeeper arrives. We just couldn't envisage sharing our privacy.

So I agve up work, as DH was out earning me considerably.

But as they say, that wasn't quite the end of the story LOL.

Xenia Read my lips.. I said on the whole the women who are less clever and less likely to be earning much become housewives. How could anyone other than a housewife with a chip on her shoulder riven with her own inadequacies take from my statement the suggesting that it's only unintelligent women who give up work?

You are completely and utterly wrong xenia. It's also lucky that we are not judging intelligence by the ability to put together a coherent sentance! What the hell does that second sentence say?! It's gibberish!

And as nolembit says "on the whole" - definition is in most instances or cases; as a rule.

Oh and Xenia I know you consider you to be intelligent, but I don't. I consider you to be someone who has a very, very successful career . . . that is it. They don't always come hand in hand.

word I think a lot of City lawyers would find your story has very familiar echoes . I have young barrister friends (commercial end) who are managing to hold it together magnificently but that life too, though hard, is inherently more flexible.

I'm no psychologist but I do now wonder if a lot of Xenia's talk about kept women etc. is transferred anger at her ex's big pay out?

I nevertheless think that had he been in an identical job to hers until she set up on her own they'd have struggled to keep it together and one or other would have had to down tools. Xenia seems to have stepped into the 'male' role which, however brilliant you may be with the more technical areas of law, is often only possible to sustain in an employed context if a partner is managing the lion's share of the organisation and care of the family and home. Or is at least available, or more available, when things go wrong.

Xenia also mentions the fact that she's moved on from the hectic early years to a period of calm, with older children. Same here, and it's worth remembering that decisions tend to get made in those early days, when things are more volatile and harder.

I'm no psychologist but I do now wonder if a lot of Xenia's talk about kept women etc. is transferred anger at her ex's big pay out?

You're probably right. I would imagine that with her working as much as she says she did, his contribution of time to his family would have been invaluable. It's a shame she doesn't recognise that. It's such a shame she begrudged him a payout when would of played such a vital role in the family. Imagine the outcry if it were the other way around!

My understanding from what Xenia has posted before is that her DH was a teacher at a private school. So it's not like he could have been available for ill children etc.

They emoloyed a full time live in nanny...he wasn't the primary carer.

Now that sounds interesting Morloth!

Yes indeed morloth what is this job that tempts you from your life of barbies in the sunshine. (I'm using horrid stereotypes, I know...but I have such a thing for Oz).

wordfactory Yes I know he wasn't a SAHP but he would likely have been around a bit more then her. That bit more would have been very valuable to their children I am sure.

"Childcare is not a woman's issue at all and as soon as you suggest it is then you make things harder for women."

Yes.

WhoseGot I'm sure both Xenia and her husband were invaluable in their DC's upbringing, but on their seperation Xenia was awarded custody of the children so clearly her DH was not considered the more hands on of the two.

wordfactory I wouldn't know anything about the custody battle! What I do know though it that Xenia has no respect for anyone who looks after their own children during the day and that she felt her ex shouldn't have got the payout that he did, despite the fact that he would have been around more then she, and didn't feel that his contribution to the family was equal to hers. That's because she only values people for the money they bring into the home and nothing else. She is money obsessed and values nothing else.

Does it sound like I have an incredibly low opinion of her? That's because I do.

Barbies happen on the weekend wordfactory, so no change there.

It is 9-5, Mon-Fri but no commute (is next door to daycare and just around the corner from school).

So tempting. Need to think about it.

As I said earlier in the thread I think the kids are fine pretty much regardless of the working arrangements. But do I want to go back to full time work (though given my previous jobs that doesn't actually sound full time to me! ).

Very generous offer and I quite like money, DH's travels might be a PITA though - much pondering required.

whosegot - I've no idea if there was a custody battle or if Xenia's ex just didn't want to have the DC living with him and she did (let's be honest, despite the yo yoing arouynd the place of Fathers For Justice, the sad fact is that most men don't want custody of their DC).

Yet he still received a large pay out on their divorce. This is usually to compensate the primary care giver...but he wasn't either before the divorce, after it, or now. She looked after the DC wiht the help of a nanny and still does. Not him.

TBH that would piss me off too.

morloth sounds very interesting.

What does your DH think?

The one good thing of course is that if you do decide to give it a whirl, if it doesn't work out you can jack it in and you won't have lost anything.

Let us know what you decide.

DH will go along with whatever I want.

If I want back at work then he will pick up the slack that he can. But to be totally honest, he makes a LOT of money and one of the reasons for that is that he can do all the crazy hours and drop everything and get on a plane.

This has its drawbacks but also obvious benefits financially.

I would be doing the drop off/pick up (obviously given location as he has a 40 minute commute). Though he did suggest he could cover any kid sick days and we could use a week's holiday each a year to go to school stuff.

The logistics are do-able, it is just what I want to do.

It is a bit of a niche position and while they are saying overtime won't be necessary, I am just not sure whether that would be the reality.

Household stuff won't be a consideration as it won't be any issue hiring cleaners etc.

TBH, it is the lack of commute that is making me consider it even though it was rather more hours than I had originally looked for.

Don't know.

I don't know how person we should make this really but he didn't want the children. I would have been happy to split them 50./50. There were no court hearings.

"Xenia has said that men can succeed because there's a woman there to cover these things. I wondered a) if she could have managed without the support of her husband (perhaps she did, it's a question) and b) what practical suggestions she would have to make life work when both partners are genuinely equal in the job she started out in (ie. not her own boss)."

I think first of all I seem to be very robust and can work harder than lots of people (as can the chidlren's father) so we were exceptional in that respect. Some people just cannot really tolerate many swings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or they fuss and fuss about their pregnancy. you see them in meetings, stroking their tummy, requiring windows to be open, making a great big drama queen thing of it.
Of course I'm lucky I have always been well and we had healthy children (or chidlren who know we struggle on howeve we feel in this family; we cope). I think they make jokes that they'd have to be virtually dead to get out of school b ut I k now the older ones love that we have that work ethic and in their own jobs it seems to be helping them a lot.

I don't assume women have sexist men. Plenty don't. I didn't. Before we married we talked about childcare and indeed as we thought I would earn more he said he'd give up work if necessary if we coudlnt' find a daily nanny ( we never in those lived lived anywhere where we had a spare bed room so someone living in was never feasible and I agree with the post above that having someone living with you is a big thing, it's hard enough ahving your own teeenagers liiving with you at times).

Practical suggestions......Lucy Kellaway in the FT last week wrote about every working parent needing to have childcare plus back up of childcare plus back up of back up etc etc I agree with her. Your chidlren are your affair andwhy should they interfere with your work. So organise it so they don't. Have friends with nannies and then if yours is sick share. Have contacts at emergency nanny agencies who can send someone. Some employers have a pool nanny who can help o ut. Do not ever let it be the woman's job.

The other poster above gave up work at that point because her husband was earnigns more so perhaps one suggestion is that women marry lower earning men so if there is a choice then the man gives up work and takes on the dross jobs at home. But they don't. In fact the fact women want to marry slightly higher status higher earning slightly older men is probably one main reason women don't progress so well at work because as soon as you decide who should give up work if the man earns more the decision is really taken.

I think in our case we both were committed to a lot of time with the babies. I loved breastfeeding. i would leave work on time very very often and probably more than in career terms was suitable but that is a small price to pay for having a lot of time with your babies and toddlers. I remember their father who rarly got home before 6 having female teacher colleagues who were allowed to go early for child things but not him as it was assumed he didn't have the same responsiblities although in reality he wa sin their posisiont - his career was second. But anyway we were both leaving reasonably early. His school day ended at 5.40 as ex boarding scool long day, some Saturday school at first so not really that short days and loads of music in the evenings and then he worked all day of one day at the wekend and after school a few nights teaching privately and we did up and let out two flats - I remember painting lots of walls when we had a 1 and 3 year old so I think we were just prepared to put in the work and be busy.

I do remember that time of under 5s as the hardest and that is the case for housewives and woemn and men who run Tesco. Babies are hard work but it's a short phase and soon they are much easier.

I think now I'm in my 40s 20+ y ears in as a parent I would say take decisions when you have babies which look at your life and work for the next 40 years which is what I did. The children and indeeed husband might leave but you may well want to have a career and your hobbies in addition and regret it 20 years hence particularly as most women die in poverty and have little money.

Aren't these attacks on Xenia getting a bit personal? I wasn't aware that 'prior knowledge of poster' was allowed on threads. Can't people just respond to the actual points she makes? It seems to me as if the personal comments based on 'outside' knowledge are going a bit too far.

word private schools have far, far longer holidays. Other than that, I can't see the relevance of the sector. Bonsoir made all the relevant points.

I know no details of the case other than what's already been said but I'd have thought given the ages of the older three children, the fact that of the two of them only Xenia could have retained the family home and given that she worked from that home, where the children lived was likely to be a foregone conclusion. These arrangements don't necessarily cast aspersions on one parent or the other and I don't think too much can be read into them either.

I would think at least some credit for Xenia's ability to combine this sort of work and five kids has to go to her husband. I still wonder how she'd have managed in a large intolerant firm if her husband had worked there also. I suspect her wings might well have been clipped.

I'm happy to be corrected. Perhaps he was a lazy fuckwit who idled away all evenings and holidays and never ever stepped into the breach.