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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be totally fucked off with the antisahm comments on here?

987 replies

slackers · 23/09/2011 19:25

Wtaf are you only a good role model to your DC if you are in paid employment?
Why does someone only be valid in society if they earn?
Why should I work only to pay someone else do a job to look after my DC? wtaf is the logic in that?
ffs

Angry
OP posts:
Treats · 27/09/2011 10:35

Wow! I haven't followed this thread, but as someone who posted on a recent thread that one of the reasons I worked was because I wanted to set a good example to my children, I thought I'd better post......

The thread was about the choices we make when the cost of childcare almost wipes out the salary we earn, leaving the net household income almost unchanged, regardless of whether the mother goes back to work after mat leave or not.

My impression is that - in that situation - people make the choice according to their own preferences - some would rather work regardless and some would rather stay home. My previous post was giving my reasons for my preference (to go back to work). Some of them are practical reasons, and some of them are emotional. They're all personal to me and my situation.

I was actually really astonished when a later poster demanded to know whether I thought she was setting a bad example to her children. I know nothing about her, her situation, her children, her reasons for being a SAHM, so of course I have no comment or judgement to make about whether or not she sets a bad example to her children. I was genuinely amazed that she read my comment and thought I was trying to say anything at all about her.

I really, really think that we need - collectively - to understand that people are entitled to make a decision about their own lives, and to offer a public justification for that decision, without people who've made a different decision feeling judged or commented on. And that goes for SAHMs and WOHMs. I can read other people's reasons for not wanting to leave their children in childcare without feeling attacked or persecuted. I know why DH and I have made the decisions we have and I don't have to justify these to an anonymous person on an internet forum or care about what they think.

wordfactory · 27/09/2011 11:01

I think that as women we are role models to our DC, and as such we must think about what we do as well as what we say.

Without doubt whether one works or not, a woman can model many many positive things...tolerance, appreciation of beauty, good humour etc etc

However, it is pure idle arrogance for anyone to believe they can model everything. We all have our limitations. Those that say their own siuation is utterly perfect and they are the perfect role model are either a. deluded or b. making no effort to actually think about their situation.

Yellowstone · 27/09/2011 11:03

I agree Treats. I've no idea why Xenia has to proselytize. She and I are very approximate in terms of age, background, age of children, number of children, the schooling and universities that we want for our children and the premium we place on their happiness.

I score ten out of ten on all the things Xenia holds dear (arguably, I have the edge on her from what she says) but managed through the state system so without the need to work to generate income for fees.

Admittedly I don't own an island but I don't feel a pressing need for one because I live year round beside the sea.

I don't proselytise (I quite see the attraction of an interesting job) but then may well be clever than Xenia.

Yellowstone · 27/09/2011 11:06

But not much better at spelling: may well be cleverer than Xenia.

TandB · 27/09/2011 11:17

Totally agree, Wordfactory. I am rather of the 'takes a village to raise a child' view. I know I can't be all things to DS and I wouldn't want to be. There are things I do well with him and there are things DP is better at, and other things that MIL is good at. There are also activities that nursery are better set up to offer him than I am, and observations that they can make that I might miss.

I would imagine as he gets older these different role models will become more and more important, as things like different academic skills become important. I am likely to be the one who teaches him to read and write. DP will almost certainly share interests in things like science, mechanics, different sports. DP already takes him to sporting events that I have no interest in, and I let him 'help' with sewing by making piles of bright sewing fabrics etc. His aunty lets him 'help' her make cakes. His gran takes him round the supermarket and help with the shopping.

Some mums might be better all rounders than me when it comes to raising a child, but I agree entirely that no one can do it all and there will always be opportunities for others to enhance a child's life. That is not to say that a child raised exclusively by one carer will be disadvantaged - they might be very advanced in certain ways because of the consistent, one-to-one care, while a child who has a lot of input from different carers might be more of a jack of all trades. A bit further down the line and it is all likely to level out anyway.

signothetimes · 27/09/2011 11:39

I'll start by saying I haven't read most of the thread so apologies if I'm repeating anything that's already been said. My view, for what it's worth, is the whole 'working sets a good example' argument is a bit flawed IMO. My own mum was at home raising me and my DB until I started high school. I took for granted her presence at home when I was growing up, just because she was always there, so never really gave it a thought. Until she went out to work. That's when I noticed what she gave me growing up. After that, home was not the same place, and I hated the time between coming home from school, and her coming home from work. That's my personal experience, and not one that everyone else will have had.

Fast forward 20-odd years, and I have my own DD. I've not had the choice to stay at home but have been able to work part time since she was almost 9 mths old. I've tried to give her a good balance of time with me, and time with a lovely childminder while I work. At the age she is now (6) she has no understanding or appreciation that me working is setting any kind of example. All she knows is that she wants to be with me when I'm at work. All she knows is my presence is missing, when she wants it. I've explained how things work i.e. you work to earn money to pay bills, buy food, and all the nice things she has. She would still rather spend time with me, than me be at work. Maybe she'll learn to appreciate what I do more as she gets older. Maybe not. I don't honestly think the argument that working sets a good example holds much weight when your child just doesn't get it. I know my mum went out to work when she'd had enough of being at home, and also because we, as a family, needed the money. But, it didn't alter my feelings that the home without her there was not the same - it was a pretty miserable, bleak place at times, with my dad getting me to do all the cooking/cleaning and endless arguments with my brother. My mum was the difference and to me, what she brought me in my early years, was priceless.

The 'work setting a good example' argument for me, doesn't hold much weight as my mum didn't work for nearly 12 years, yet I've had a good 'work ethic' since well before I left school. I worked from aged 16, Left school at 18 and I've only ever had 3 weeks of unemployment at aged 18. I had the 'work ethic' instilled in me despite my mum being at home. What I think spurred me on was the good education I had (state not private), and the ambition I developed while gaining my education. I wasn't even that encouraged by my parents (have no real memory of that) but I just had a thirst for knowledge, and from that followed the ambition that's pushed me throughout my working life. I'm not a graduate, just worked from leaving school and worked my way up into a well paid job, so I've had 20 years working, apart from the 9 mths I had off on maternity.

My DD is thriving in the life I give her, despite the fact I went out to work when she was almost 9 mths. She's not always been happy with that but she's still had a good chunk of my time because I worked part time. Given that I'm also a single parent, I have always tried to maintain that balance for her benefit as I do feel it's important that we get lots of quality time together. I don't agree with the 'working sets a good example' argument that I guess is the reason for this thread. I think it's a far more complicated issue for children, and how they develop a good work ethic for their adulthood, than to simply say if you work, they'll 'get it' and want to work too. I didn't get my work ethic from that example from my mum, 'cos she didn't work for a large part of my childhood.

wordfactory · 27/09/2011 12:02

Thing is yellow that even if Xenia didn't proselytise, she would still get it in the neck, I fear.

If she came on MN simply saying, look ladies, it can be done. You can have a career and have children and both they and you be happy. Don't be guilty, don't be afraid....you'd still get some posters huffing and puffing, accusing her of giving her child to someone else to raise. The breast beaters would still come out in force saying she was a bad parent because they're not happy about any women working and having families if truth be told. They think it's a Bad Thing.

(though exceptions seem to be generously made for single mothers on benefits...they really ought to work).

And given that most women hvae to work and that most of our DDs will want DC too...I think those breast beaters are a hell of a lot more damaging than Xenia ever will be.

WhoseGotMyEyebrows · 27/09/2011 12:12

Xenia "Someone was suggesting housewives were best at bringing up children. I was saying the ones who are housewives are on average the ones who failed at work and were not perhaps in the top earners so were probably less bright and may be not quite so good at child psychology and bringing up children. I stand by that"

Holy fucking wow! I think I have just made a concious decision to make my eyeballs delete any more of your posts Xenia. It is not something I wish to read and you are not someone I wish to listen to. I have never known any one to be so obsessed with work, money and workplace success. With a vacuous person you must be. I am frankly absolutely disgusted.

I agree with whoever wrote this . . .

That is, quite possibly, one of the most demeaning and insulting things written about housewives and SAHM I have ever seen. If a man came on MN and wrote that there would be a riot. It is actually even worse that it has been written by a woman.

Ormirian · 27/09/2011 12:16

Goodness me, some of you do seem quite nasty in your comments about WOHM. I think this explains why the arguments never die down - this thread is about defending SAHM from critisism....by critisising WOHM. And round it goes again and again. Same old same old .

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 27/09/2011 12:26

wordfactory - Yes, but she didn't did she?

People are objecting to the offensive, ill-informed posts she has made - the posts saying that SAHMs are stupid, they are not objecting to the imaginary, in-your-head, nice, positive posts that she hasn't made.

How strange.

(and I'm aware that Xenia sometimes does write good, positive posts and that there are also a lot of nasty anti-WOHM posts on this thread)

GetOrfMo1Land · 27/09/2011 12:28

I agree with ormirian - lots of people defending sahms are being rather judgmental about wohms.

Oh well. It is a groundhog day topic this, if there ever was one.

donthateme · 27/09/2011 12:30

Pssss laptop- re: your last post. Let me into a secret. Working parents bring their own children up too!

Now, if you really feel the need to dispute that fact, it'll be proof that you aren't just happy to have made your choice, but that you seek to denigrate other peoples choices.

Yellowstone · 27/09/2011 12:57

I expect those doing the best job vis a vis their children are the ones who are open-minded about who does what with their life.

I wonder how Xenia is going to take it if her DD declares she wants to be a SAHM.

If that's what my DC decide suits them best, it's all fine by me.

SexualHarrassmentPandaPop · 27/09/2011 13:00

She would get it in the neck from a minority simply for working it's true. But she's getting a flaming from sahm's who think working is an equally valid choice because she is insulting them.

minxofmancunia · 27/09/2011 13:03

Agree with wordfactory and i do think it sets our daughters a good example by working, I'm afraid signothetimes I find your post a bit sexist, Fathers can make homes a homely working place too. My Dad certainly did, he was a vicar so at home for large chunks of the day with me. My Mum worked so we "didn't look like vicars children" she herself wore clothes from charity shops, despite having a full time professional career.

Yes my Dad was a s**t cook (cold chicken, kidney beans and crisps anyone?!), and he took me to some very odd places, (religious icon exhibitions, anglo-saxon stone crosses in various rural outposts) but he was kind and attentive, highly knowledgeable and answered all my questions. He didn't really play with me, I had a vivid imagination and was great at playing by myself...which I think is one the best gifts you can give your children the ability to entertain themselves without constant adult intervention/supervision. He did a grand, if unconventional job.

I would be disappointed if dd didn't at least try a career for a few years before starting a family, I want her to have a strong work ethic.

minxofmancunia · 27/09/2011 13:05

I also hate the phrase "full time mum". Guess what I'm a "full time mum" too! the fact I grew and nurture and constantly think about the well being of 2 little beings doesn't stop just because I'm at work!

wordfactory · 27/09/2011 13:12

I think xenia would be disappointed if her DC became SAHPs, for sure, but, and I accept I am only going from reading her posts over the years, she would easily get over it if it made her DC happy.

She hasn't got to where she has in her career, and stayed there by not being able to roll with the punches.

I wonder whether the same can be said for the breast beaters? How will they feel if their DDs want to pursue a career? How will theys sleep at night?

And yet, statistically their DDs are going to work and have a family.

Bonsoir · 27/09/2011 13:17

I fully expect my DD to pursue a career (after taking degrees on at least three continents Smile and to make a lot of money before having children. What she decides to do when she has children will be her business but I will be fully supportive of whatever choice she makes (including taking care of her children while she works, if she and their father so desire).

donthateme · 27/09/2011 13:19

Agree minx. I am a parent full time. As is dh. We don't switch off from parenting! If anyone tries to claim that a parent who works is a 'part time parent' then they clearly have ishoos!

jellybeans · 27/09/2011 13:22

'She has cried on my shoulder many times that she wishes she had stayed in employment. But as i told her, hindsight is a wonderful thing and you do what you think is best at the time.'

I agree that hindsight is wonderful and you do the best thing you can at the time-if indeed you have a choice. Just a point, though, for every lady such as that in the story above; there could well be a mother who wishes she had more time at home with their kids, I know a few.

SexualHarrassmentPandaPop · 27/09/2011 13:23

minx genuine question - do you find the phrase "full time work" offensive?? Because as a sahm mum I couldn't use it myself yet I am working all day.

I want my dd/ds to do whatever makes them happy. I will be happy for them if they are happy in their careers and want to use childcare and will even offer to be their childcare. I will also be happy if they would rather use a childminder, nanny or nursery. If they are happy to be a sahp then great but I won't be pressuring them into anything they don't want by saying that they need to teach their kids the value of work or they mustn't 'dump' them in nursery.

Pissfarterleech · 27/09/2011 13:26

I'm with Bonsoir on every post.

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with nurseries , I don't believe that being a SAHM is better or being a WOHM.

We shoudl all do what suits us and not anyone else.

I have splinters up my arse form this fence Grin

floosiemcwoosie · 27/09/2011 13:28

I am not picking out your splinters again Pissfart

Wont it be great when we are all grandparents. Just think we will be able to band together and scorn a whole generations parenting. Because they will be completely screwed up, not from SAHM or WOHM, but because we spent all out time bickering on Mumsnet Grin

minxofmancunia · 27/09/2011 13:29

I agree looking after children all day is work too and no "full time work" isn't offensive, it's a completely different context what an odd question. Confused.

I'm a bit in a minority though as I find looking after children easier than my job which is a damn sight harder. Time with the dcs is a break, tbh the bit that got me down about being a SAHM on Mat leave was the non stop bloody housework.

Pagwatch · 27/09/2011 13:31

I continue to be astonished that the two extremes on each side of the argument act as if women have children and then get in line for the sorting hat -wohm or sahm.

It is such an outdated notion. Peoples lives are fluid. Many will be both. Career women take breaks. Women have children and then create a new career or working life once the children leave hone. Working women get made redundant. A high flyer may have a crisis in their personal life and stay at home for a while.

I started my career in the 80s filled with insecure men who put down women by ridiculing them for being in the workplace, insecure women who aped that behaviour as a means to get ahead and the ever present demand that a woman must chose, must define herself.

It is all a bit grim that not much has moved amongst the shrill on both sides