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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 13:24

"Can you explain how shooting someone in the back - therefore, someone who can in no way be construed as threatening to attack you - is not murder?"

I'd argue that a defence of provocation may be appropriate and as such manslaughter and not murder.

"
Can you also, in the interests of putting some parameters in place, sketch out which items of property you feel are worth more than a human life?"

Any of my property which someone is trying to steal from me is worth more to me than their life, if they are putting me in a position were the only options I have is allow them to take it or use reasonable force to stop them stealing from me which carries a risk that they may die.

Animation · 19/09/2011 13:24

MIFLAW.

I can't imagine what it must be like to have someone walk towards you with a knife.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 13:27

Oh and burglary is not necessarily theft, it is simply entering a building or any part there of without permission and with the intent of committing an arrestable offence (or entering without permission and subsequently forming the intent to commit an offence). So it can include rape/gbh/murder etc.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:29

MIFLAW I wouldn't live with someone who thought it acceptable to break into people's homes and terrify, threaten and do god knows what to women and children.

If you choose to live with scum like that, tough shit when they are hoist by their own petard.

Andrewofgg · 19/09/2011 13:29

Sorry, TotemPole - I entirely misunderstood you.

MIFLAW What item of property is worth more than a burglar's life? What mayorofquimby said. If it's in my home it's mine to protect if I see fit. Would you care to suggest what sort of things we should not be entitled to protect?

CogitoErgoSometimes · 19/09/2011 13:38

"Burglary is a crime but it is not in itself rape, ABH, GBH or murder."

Having the sanctity of your home violated can be as traumatising as having your body violated. Many suffer from PTSD after a burglary - unable to sleep, feeling unsafe in their home, suffering nightmares & panic attacks. Don't think the effects should trivialised at all.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:39

Mayorquimby

I think you'd have a hard job proving "provocation" if the victim of your knife attack had his back to you. Your defence would be self-defence and you can't very well be defending yourself from someone who was running away.

Of COURSE a burglary CAN include rape/gbh/murder. So can asking someone for a light at a bus stop. But, in this case, it is wholly unreasonable to assume that it would have ended in any one of those things. So this remains what it is - the stabbing to death of a man caught breaking and entering (assuming even that much is true - the case is not at all clear.)

You say that "any of your property" is worth more than a life. Stabbing someone to death is NOT reasonable force for defending property - it is only reasonable force for defending yourself against a perceived threat to one's life.

Animation

You see, I CAN imagine that, because I have twice been threatened with a knife at close proximity. I am very glad never to have seen either person since; I do not think either of them deserved to die. I am certainly very glad that I do not have their deaths on my conscience because, whatever their crimes, they were human beings. I think a lot of people talk a load of old bollocks about men like this burglar deserving all they get. Can you imagine you, yourself, sticking a knife in a man's heart and them watching him die? Then living with that? How about if you put it in his back as he left the scene? If you knew him, even by sight, could you face his wife afterwards? What about his kids? His mother? What if, like Fred Barras (shot in the back by Tony Martin) he died in severe pain, crying for his mum like the child he was?

It's easy to talk big on this sort of issue because, when it's not us, it's easy to pretend that criminals really ARE sub-human. I don't think most of us would feel the same if we were holding the knife, however much the burglar "deserved" it.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:42

"Would you care to suggest what sort of things we should not be entitled to protect?" I don't think ANY property is worth more than a life - ultimately, you can replace property, you can't replace a life.

As I've already said, if you believe that your wedding ring, DVD player or cross trainer is worth more than a man's life, go and tell it to his widow and children face to face.

VelvetSnow · 19/09/2011 13:43

just musing

I wonder if those who think this homeowner was wrong to kill in an act of self defence would also think it is wrong for a farmer to shoot a dog for worrying livestock....

Both situations are similar IMO, each has a person killing in defence.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:43

"do god knows what to women and children" - sorry, where is the evidence that this burglar planned to do anything at all except, well, burgle?

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:44

Actually MIFLAW, I disagree with everything you say.

These burglers were known to the police. They showed up with a knife. Their intent was to burgle and fuck anyone who got in their way.

I could easily imaging killing someone and I'm glad I can because if anyone did get into my house when DH wasn't there, I like to think I could protect us all.
Career burglers really are the lowest form of scum, you really have to believe that. I know, I used to teach them.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:44

Velvet

Just musing ...

A dog is a dog. A person is a person.

A dog worrying livestock can be expected to maim and/or cause death to other animals. The majority of burglars burgle.

Absolutely ridiculous comparison.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:45

MIFLAW - erm, the fact he was carrying a knife? Or do you think he just intended to cut himself some cheese with it?

VelvetSnow · 19/09/2011 13:47

"do god knows what to women and children" - sorry, where is the evidence that this burglar planned to do anything at all except, well, burgle?

The evidence is that he had a knife. Deadly weapon. To carry a knife shows intent.

What are people supposed to do - wait for the burglar to do "god knows" what and then react?

bemybebe · 19/09/2011 13:47

MIFLAW - at what point do you decide that this attacker with a knife is after your property only and NOT after your life?

It is terrible for the relatives, but i think all the tears and flower laying at the door of the house of the family that was attacked is in very poor taste.

Animation · 19/09/2011 13:47

MIFLAW - What about the knife in the burglar's hand? You keep ignoring that bit.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:47

"Career burglers really are the lowest form of scum, you really have to believe that. I know, I used to teach them."

I don't have to believe anything of the sort.

I didn't actually ask if you could imagine killing someone. I asked if you thought you could live with it afterwards and if you could face his or her children who might not even have known what their parents were up to or why they aren't around anymore.

And, again, protecting people and protecting property are two entirely different things and should not be treated as if they were the same thing.

Jamillalliamilli · 19/09/2011 13:48

I know exactly what it feels like to be confronted by an armed burglar in the middle of the night, and all I can say is all opinions, morality, spirituality etc went out of the window.
I didn?t ask him if he meant me or my children harm, or just wished to steal from us, it didn?t occur to me. Instinctive survival said attack, hurt and keep hurting. If that makes me a bad person, and not one of the 'most of us' so be it.
He escaped injured, but if he?d died it would have been his own fault, regardless of how I felt over it, because while I can make reasoned attempts at humane behaviour in the cool light of day, apparently if I?m frightened enough I don?t.
As far as I'm concerned that's the chance the burgler takes.

Btw not only was he armed, but had placed my hammer behind the flat door, and my kitchen knife by another door, apparently as weapons to grab if disturbed. I don't understand why anyone would think I should be thinking about his safety in all this.

TotemPole · 19/09/2011 13:48

Andrew, no problem.:)

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:48

This is where we differ MIFLAW.

There are many so called humans who would do the world a favour by expiring. I don't believe in the sanctity of human life per se and never will.

Burglers burgle providing they are not disturbed. You are very welcome to try and reason with one in your house and offer him a cuppa if you like. me. I'll use me shotgun, thanks all the same.

Andrewofgg · 19/09/2011 13:48

JillySnooper I take it you are using the word fuck in its "wider" sense? Nothing here to suggest a sexual motive. Just greed.

And ffs keep the dog analogy in the kennel where it belongs.

VelvetSnow · 19/09/2011 13:49

MIFLAW

read my post please - I'm comparing the act of killing in defence. Not whether the victim was a dog or a person.

And like I said I was just musing

spookshowangellovesit · 19/09/2011 13:50

a dog worrying livestock and getting put down.............
a human stabbing another human. were is the comparison?

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:51

Could I live with myself if I shot dead a piece of armed thieving scum?

Oh, get real.

I tell you what, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't attack him and he harmed my children.

I wouldn't waste a moment worrying about killing scum like that, except maybe if they bled on my new carpets............

Whatmeworry · 19/09/2011 13:51

As I've already said, if you believe that your wedding ring, DVD player or cross trainer is worth more than a man's life, go and tell it to his widow and children face to face

Yup, and when someone walks into your house with a knife you know he is actually really after your iPod and Star Wars collection, don't you....

I'll also bet that the residents of that house will now be harassed by the relatives and friends of the dead burglar. Any takers?.

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