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Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
Tortoiseonthehalfshell · 19/09/2011 13:51

Well, there are many plausible reasons why he was carrying a knife but didn't intend to hurt anyone. Self defense against a violent home owner comes to mind.

I agree with MIFLAW here, entirely. Either it was genuine self-defense, in which case you'd be having to prove proportionate reaction (i.e., fatal stabbing as only way to save self from danger), or it wasn't. A lot of you are seriously saying that it's alright to murder someone who doesn't pose a threat to your physical safety, in order to protect an iPod?

bemybebe · 19/09/2011 13:53

Absolutely Jilly!

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:53

And no, I don't have a seconds sympathy for a woman who lives off and with an armed burgler either. She's almost as bad as he is.

Or do you think any of them would have given a shiny shit if they'd killed the homeowner?

VelvetSnow · 19/09/2011 13:53

I'll say it one more time.

I'm comparing the act of killing in defence of anything.

Wrong time/place to bring it up, granted

Whatmeworry · 19/09/2011 13:53

Well, there are many plausible reasons why he was carrying a knife but didn't intend to hurt anyone. Self defense against a violent home owner comes to mind

Sometimes you just have to gasp [mouth wide open emoticon]

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:54

"MIFLAW - at what point do you decide that this attacker with a knife is after your property only and NOT after your life?" At the point that I get the fuck out of their way and they start nicking my stuff rather than following me.

I am not at all ignoring the fact that the burglar had a knife. That is all the more reason not to tackle him.

Everyone seems very gung-ho as if it was inevitable that the householder would win. Assume for now that the burglar really was ther just to burgle, as most burglars are - after all, killing people carries a much higher sentence than burglary.

What would have happened if, in the scuffle, both men had died? Or even just the householder? The burglar would of course rightly end up in prison (at great potential hardship to his family.) And what of the householder's family? What comfort is it to them that their dad died fighting a burglar who quite probably was not looking for a fight?

We have insurance, and police, and courts, for a reason - to deal with crime and its effects. and self-defence with a knife - rather than, say, a billiard cue - is doomed to failure because it is far to easy to do more damage than you intend to do. And someone then has to live with the consequences of that.

altinkum · 19/09/2011 13:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TotemPole · 19/09/2011 13:54

JillySnooper, do you have a link to the article that says they were known to the police?

If they were known to the police, why didn't they try to hide their identity, wear balaclavas or something.

They've caught the other man. I dont' know if that's because of IDing him or the van he drove away in.

MIFLAW, if someone turns up with a knife, I'd assume they're willing to use it.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:55

Self defence against a violent homeowner?

Dear god, give me fucking strength.

bemybebe · 19/09/2011 13:55

a person in my home holding a knife = threat to my physical safety tortoise

Insomnia11 · 19/09/2011 13:56

No-one has of course been prosecuted yet. The man who stabbed the burglar has to be arrested while they establish the facts. Unfortunately there have been cases where a murder as a result of a drugs dispute has been made to look like a burglary gone wrong. The police must investigate.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 19/09/2011 13:56

"I asked if you thought you could live with it afterwards and if you could face his or her children who might not even have known what their parents were up to or why they aren't around anymore."

Yes.... I could live with it far easier than, I suspect, than the armed robber imprisoned for killing a householder who got in the way when out 'grafting' and having to explain to his children why Daddy is a nasty old murderer.

There was a terrible incident last year near where I live when a madman barged into a neighbour's home and stabbed a woman who later died of her injuries. Her teenage son, defending his mother, bravely stabbed and killed the intruder. I'm sure he's horribly traumatised by the events of that day and his only regret would be that he couldn't save his mother. I doubt he spends too much time thinking about the assailant.

landrover · 19/09/2011 13:56

Miflaw , can u imagine answering the front door and there is a man with a knife staring u at the face? MMmmm ok he is here to steal some stuff, i will let him and everything will be alright!!! Can u imagine how terrifying it would be? I would like you to tell me how u would feel? He obviously didnt know for sure the place was empty or he wouldnt have carried a knife!! HE HAD A KNIFE !!! ffs.

bemybebe · 19/09/2011 13:56

"Self defence against a violent homeowner?" Grin it must be a fucking joke

GooseyLoosey · 19/09/2011 13:57

Self-defence is a complete defence to a charge of murder, however it must be proved to ensure that it is not mis-used. The defendant must show that they used only such force as was objectively necessary in the circumstances (as the defendant reasonably believed them to be).

The starting point is that one individual has deliberately and unlawfully killed another unless the defence can be proved. This is why the homeowners are charged (as I understand it). It is not then sufficient to say "the person was a burglar so I killed him". It may well be the case that the homeowner believed that his life was in danger and in which case the defence will be (and should be) properly proved but this should not be assumed.

To ensure justice for all in as many cases as possible, the defence should not be loosely and widely interpreted and should be carefully applied.

altinkum · 19/09/2011 13:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 13:57

"Or do you think any of them would have given a shiny shit if they'd killed the homeowner?" yes - I think nearly any human being would care immensely if he or she killed another human being. Even soldiers, who voluntarily take up a job that involves killing people they have nothing against personally, and who do so in the heat of battle with the full blessing of authority, can suffer severe trauma as a result of having to kill. I would think that a burglar who ended up killing someone wuold regret it enormously, because not to do so is a sign of a lack of basic humanity.

and i bet, when all the bravado and bollocks dies down, this householder will find it harder to live with than he lets on, too.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 13:57

MIFLAW, so you get out of his way.

But yunno, you've seen his face and he's high on drugs and you have just got out of his way in a house with layout he doesn't know and you may have gone to summon help.

You reckon he's just gonna carefully rifle through your CD collection and quietly let himself out?

You are extraordinarily naiive at best.

Andrewofgg · 19/09/2011 13:58

Tortoiseonthehalfshell The risk of being attacked by a violent homeowner when you are not in that home unlawfully or trying to get in unlawfully is a bit remote. And if you are, well, why are you?

Was that post a wind-up?

MiseryBusiness · 19/09/2011 13:59

If someone entered my house I would probably stay well out of the way unless they came upstairs.
At this point I would defend myself and my children with every force I had available to me - the burglars life would not matter to me by then.
I wouldnt persue them if they nicked everything I own downstairs - thats what insurance is for.

TotemPole · 19/09/2011 13:59

altinkum, two knives were recovered. At least one belonged to the alleged burglars.

evidence that he was going to use it with intent, to injure another human being, and not to break into the window

Surely they'd wait to see if anyone answered the door, and if not sneak round the back to break in, then get the knife out. According to the article, they produced it at the door.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:00

"HE HAD A KNIFE !!! ffs." Yes, exactly! so, if I couldn't stop him entering the house, I would get the fuck out of his way and see if there was some way I could catch him by surprise later.

FWIW I also wouldn't be so fucking stupid as to answer the door without checking who was behind it. Chains have been readily available for some time in most regions of Britain, I believe.

bemybebe · 19/09/2011 14:01

"knifes are used to get into locks"?... somehow i think people use more handy tools for that. if not - they should.

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:01

As far as I'm concerned any burglar who enters my home is a threat to my safety. I'm not going to sit them down and do a survey with them to see if they're interested in A electrical goods B Money C Assault D A nice chat E Murder or F Rape.

The minute a burglar is in my home then you are a threat to my safety. I don't know them. I don't know what they'll do,and even if they say that they're 'just' after my property that's no guarantee of safety as far as I'm concerned,and I'm not waiting for them to make the first move.

If they don't leave when I tell them to, then I will defend myself,and my property. I'm anti death penalty and it'd haunt me forever if I killed someone but not half as much as it'd haunt me if I allowed my family to be harmed because I didn't want to main or kill a burglar.

Burglary in itself is a serious crime. I don't know why some people seem to think it isn't. It can have the most devastating effect on people's psyche.
I was a juror on a court case where an elderly lady had been robbed during the day,by an opportunist thief,and thrown downstairs by him. She was injured but as she explained it was that someone had been in her home that had the most devastating effect. She no longer felt safe,not during the day or at night,Her life was in tatters after that,and she was never the same again. That case still haunts me some five years later.

Jamillalliamilli · 19/09/2011 14:01

there are many plausible reasons why he was carrying a knife but didn't intend to hurt anyone. Self defense against a violent home owner comes to mind.
But they don't need to put themselves in a position where the homeowner may become violent! They choose to do this.

Would it be ok for criminals to carry guns but not intend to hurt anyone, as self defense against armed police?