To have no sympathy for the burglar

[Mitmoo]

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

Hermione

someone asked me if I thought it was all right if, because someone did nothing, other people would have to deal with it?

I said yes, if it's the police, I'm fine with that.

So I do take your point, but I think you've misunderstood me a bit. Call the police or take your chances defending yourself - both legal, both fine by me.

But do I think I have a moral duty to sort it out myself just so the police don't have to get involved? no, I don't. I reserve the right to act as I think best if and when it ever happens and, if that involves the police showing up, that's fine by me.

"MIFLAW, it's almost as if you want Mr Cooke to be convicted, that you want scumscrote to be exonerated"

despite consistently saying that if the man has acted in self-defence he is completely in the right and he hopes he faces no charges? But he'd like to know the full facts before committing to a position?

Thanks, Mayor

I think I'll try harder to leave the thread this time, though. The row is getting more and more circular and (with a few notable exceptions) posters are becoming less and less willing to engage constructively with opposing views.

MIFLAW Another person who's had no difficulty understanding what you've been saying.

I might not agree with all your points - I think the dead man's family should lay their flowers somewhere else if they need to create a shrine, and on the face of it he doesn't seem to have been a very nice man. We'll see.

But you haven't said anything offensive or untrue. I guess you know that but I thought you might welcome a bit of support.

Thanks Limited

I agree limited

I dont understand what all the bloody fuss is about.

I havent seen anyone baying for the incarceration of the poor householder or asking for a statue of the burgler to get the 4th bloody plinth in Trafalger square.

Is it that hard to understand that not everyone is happy that someone is dead regardless of how much of a scumbag they are.

It doesnt make us bloody wishy washy crime groupies ffs.

I really cannot be bothered to c&p all the beauties that Miflaw, altinkum and tortoise came up with earlier up thread, but here are just a few specifically in relation to the knife that this robber brought with him and percieved danger he posed to the homeowner as a result of his action:

"Of COURSE a burglary CAN include rape/gbh/murder. So can asking someone for a light at a bus stop. But, in this case, it is wholly unreasonable to assume that it would have ended in any one of those things."
"just because he had a knife in his hand, does not mean he was going to use it to hurt another being"
"Well, there are many plausible reasons why he was carrying a knife but didn't intend to hurt anyone. Self defense against a violent home owner comes to mind." (this last one was NOT a joke btw)

and?

If I have a burglar in my home I will try and get me Dh and dd out alive first and foremost in whatever way possible.

If that means stabbing the fucker cause he is blocking the doorway then yes, I will. If I can get out in a non lethal way I would do that because I am doing what I think is safest. And not getting in to a fight is safest. I'd feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever though. I will not be attacked or raped in my home because I was too nice to stop someone from harming me. My job as dd's mother is to make sure she comes to no harm in her home either she is first- burglar ranks somewhere way down on the list after mosquitoes.

mayorquimby a lot of the discussions on here are foucsed on whether Mr Cooke had the right to defend his property and family. I think any one does when under threat of harm. Having been in a similar position but physically in capable of defending myself. I empathise with what appears, from what has been released to the media, his actions based on the events.
Personally I would not be capable of torture or enslavery as there has to be some thinking done around those actions, what I was referring to was the gut reaction to your property being intruded and your family being put at risk.
My position is that people have a right to defend their property and family - no more no less.
It is easy to spout wisdom on what should have happened and what we would all do but until we walk in those shoes wearing those shoes. It is difficult to say.

MrsDeVere, do I really need to spell out that asking someone for light is infinitely safer than confronting a robber carrying a knife in your own home? That every time a knife is pointed at someone it is reasonable to assume thta they intend to use it and that the third point is just plain laughable... Really??

I am tending towards the view that the dead man was a violent cunt.

But just on the off-chance, even violent cunts have the right to a cursory investigation into the manner of their deaths if they don't die aged 90 tucked up in bed at home.

Blame it on the joy and pain of living in a civilised society.

That's essentially what MIFLAW, altinkum, tortoise and others are saying.

From what's known so far, I expect Mr Cooke will be released without charge.

In the event that he is charged, a jury will consider the facts. Juries have a history of siding with people in his situation and why not? We can all imagine what it might be like.

They've even acquitted in cases where the householder has a history of extreme violence. Or perhaps because of that history.

www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/4870855.SWANLEY__Police_officer_stabbed_by_Kenneth_Noye_to_be_remembered/

And before anyone runs away with the fantasy that I'm comparing Mr Cooke with Kenneth Noye I'm not. Just want to make that clear.

It's just that jurors tend to side with lone householders encountering threatening-looking men in their homes.

In the case of Tony Martin they didn't. That doesn't make me think they were all Guardian-reading wets. That makes me think they were all local people, familiar with the problems of rural crime and policing and also with repeat offenders like Fred Barras and Brendan Fearon.

I suspect they would have seized on a way to get Martin off the hook if only they could have found one.

So can we just let the police continue with their inquiries?

And while we're at it, would people tone down the gung-ho comments about what they'd do to intruders threatening them or their babies? Until you're in that situation you can't know how you'd react.

Many pages ago someone linked to this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders

Mr Petit seems to have been surprised. But in hindsight do we think Mrs Petit could have done more?

Or do we think they were terrified and they and the countless others who acquiesed in the face of violence were just trying to get out of it alive?

Sorry, this is the correct link

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders

Not having much luck there, am I? Anyway, just add the bits in black if you haven't already read the link.

Actually a lot of offensive comments have been made if you read back to beginning of thread, anyone that didn't agree with law was given a lot of abuse

hermionestranger agree with you 100% my next door lady was broken in to she is 85 i saw the person jump her fence i then called the police

do you know what they said well he hasn't actually gone in yet and that i was to call back if it took a turn for the worst

luckily i had a fog horn form cravinval which i tooted and he ran off

have faith in the police at the cost of your life people

any fecker comes in my home granted only one will be leaving and that will be me i would stand for any one trying on with me family end of

If a burglar broke into our home, if possible I would render them unconcious/imobile by whatever means possible, and never experience a moment's guilt if they were seriously injured, or killed in the process. I would 100% expect DH to do the same.

How do you know you or your husband would be able to do that Lequeen?

If it wasn't possible what would you think of yourself or your DH if you survived in the event of any harm coming to your children?

What do you think of people who make the decision to acquiese, for whatever reason?

"even violent cunts have the right to a cursory investigation into the manner of their deaths if they don't die aged 90 tucked up in bed at home."

Limited Sorry but you are wrong. Not "cursory", but professional and thorough police investigation. No ifs or buts.

I have absolutely no problem with a proper and thorough investigation. I have absolutely no problem with trial if there is enough evidence for criminal prosecution, neither I have a problem with the guilty verdict if reached by sensible wo/men.

I do object to the line that he was carrying a knife in "self-defense against a violent homeowner" however. I do find it offensive. Does it make my comments "gung-ho"??

I said in an earlier post that burglars lose their human rights when they enter my home illegally.

Yes, I agree this was poorly worded, but as an earlier poster said, I was thinking more along moral rights. I would never dream of causing anyone pain or hurt as a rule, verbally or physically.

However, twenty four years ago I was put in a terrifying situation. Not a burglary, granted, but one where I thought I'd had it. The strength and ferocity I displayed scared me. I am more fight than flight possibly because I can't run fast. Believe me, I tried to get away. I had no access to a weapon, but if one had been at hand I know I would have used it. I genuinely think he would have severely injured or killed me if I hadn't fought back. My initial weakness just seemed to fuel his power and rage if that makes sense? I never got over it really, I put up a pretty good front in order to protect my family.

Someone came to my aid, I was lucky. I know the strength I found that day would probably be threefold if I thought someone was going to hurt my mum and dad in our safe place. I couldn't bear for them to feel the pain I feel on a daily basis.

And yes, I know it was a long time ago but that fear hasn't really left me. I am probably weaker than most.

Sorry bemybebe I was being flippant. It's my tragedy. Of course I want it to be a rigorous investigation. But I shouldn't have expected people to realise that.

And I have not used the line that the dead man was carrying a knife 'in self-defence against a violent homeowner'. Truth be told, I find that quite an odd concept, but as I said, I agree in principle with the poster who said it and others.

I'm not aware that any of your comments have been gung-ho and I apologise if I said so. I don't think I did but I could be wrong.

I have, however, noticed others being gung-ho and making statements about meeting violence with violence when they have no experience of the circumstances.

I would never blame anyone who genuinely met violence with violence in the defence of themselves or their loved-ones.

I wonder how people would know how they would react in such extreme circumstances.

I also question how they would judge people who decided to put their hands up. In many cases people do that and that doesn't make them cowards. It makes them paralysed by fear, pragmatic, resigned until a better opportunity presents itself - I don't know.

I'm sure people don't intend to call people who offer no resistance cowards.

But that's how these debates usually end up.

"My position is that people have a right to defend their property and family - no more no less. "

In which case far from believing that they give up their human rights at the door, you belkieve that their human right still apply fully in accordance with the law.

Lequeen How many assailants could your DH take on? Are both of you always at battle-stations?

What if he was separated from you and your children? What if the assailant or assailants threatened to harm any of you if you or he didn't do what they wanted?

I'm not having a go but I don't understand how people can say what they'd do in situations like this when the situations are so fluid.

Some people have fought back and died, some people have lived. Some people have bargained and achieved a good outcome, some people have gone along with it and found out their families were slaughtered before they even set off for the cashpoint.

Every situation is different and as many people have said on this thread nobody has time to think.