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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
BupcakesandCunting · 20/09/2011 13:17

I don't think that you are unpleasant or stunted, Jilly. It's a shame that MIFLAW can't use a good debate to persuade people to think his way rather than doling out slop from the insult bucket.

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 13:17

"Oh and stop trying to belittle other people, MIFLAW, by insulting them."

Quite so. No one has tried that on me or on anyone else who dares to disagree with the majority, have they? How childish of me. I should take an example from you all.

kelly2000 · 20/09/2011 13:18

No MILF,
You said that it was not an issue for the homeowner as he should be grateful he is alive, not worried about harresment and money.

And it is a bit rich for you to say someone seems unpleasant and stunted.

BupcakesandCunting · 20/09/2011 13:19

They can and should feel sad for the passing of their son/husband/brother.

What we are saying is that turning up and putting flowers outside the house of his intended crime is shitty and intimidating for the people who've had their lives ruined by him ever being there in the first place.

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 13:19

Here's a starter for ten :

If you are a lovely cheeky burgling rogue, do you carry a knife during your working hours to :

  1. Threaten hapless householders.

  2. Defend yourself against violent householders whose homes you break in to.

  3. Cut yourself a piece of cheese during a job when you get a bit peckish.

Animation · 20/09/2011 13:20

Another starter for 10.
Grin

Ormirian · 20/09/2011 13:21

As far as I can see the insults go both ways in this debate.

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 13:21

No I didn't, Kelly.

Maybe it is "a bit rich" for me to call others unpleasant and stunted. I'm far from perfect, I can say unpleasant things.

But I haven't, so far, said I see death of a human being as a good thing and I haven't disregarded the feelings of a family of a dead person with the remark, "you lie down with dogs, you get fleas."

So, imperfect I may be, but I feel I could be worse.

kelly2000 · 20/09/2011 13:21

Maybe I would feel genuine pain, but I would have the decency to realise my child was in the wrong, and I should not be hanging around outside the families home wailing. The families of the 7/7 bombers did not act like this, and try to intrude on the grief of the genuine victims, yet their grief was real.

BupcakesandCunting · 20/09/2011 13:23

MIFLAW, people have said that your ideals seem woolly, not taken pot-shots at your intellect.

You still haven't addressed my question about why you think it's reasonable for the home of the Cooke family to be turned into a shrine for the man who was planning on doing them over.

pigletmania · 20/09/2011 13:24

Miflaw I am not saying that his family have no right to grieve but the way in which they have conducted themselves is appealing. Overtly right outside the homeowners house

kelly2000 · 20/09/2011 13:26

Milf,
you have said a few times the householder should be grateful, and that compensation was not a problem as he should be grateful he has his life.

And, maybe you ahve not said those things, but you certainly have not said anything here that gives you the right to call anyone else unpleasant and stunted or even to say they are more unpleasant and stunted than you.

pigletmania · 20/09/2011 13:27

If I was mr cooks family I would remove those flowers and put them in garden waste

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 13:31

Tsk Kelly.

That would be unkind and inhuman and not fair on a family grieving for the murder of this lovely man.

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 13:32

Bupcakes

"People" have actually suggested I consort with criminals and that I am an apologist for a violent criminal, which I would say is a bit more than saying my ideals are woolly (incidentally, they are not. They are crystal clear.)

And, though I hadn't noticed your question, I think I HAVE answered it.

Is it reasonable? No it isn't - especially if (which, interestingly, no one has shown any evidence for) it is not just a misplaced expression of grief but a tactical attempt to intimidate the family.

Is it the biggest deal in a case where one man has ended up dead and his family - who may themselves be bad people or even criminals for all I know - may, like the majority of humans, you know, MISS HIM A BIT? Maybe not.

And another thing. There is broad acknowledgement here that, though the intruder was apparently a burglar, it is still not clear whethr this was a straightforward case of self-defence or whether the homeowner may in some way have "exceeded his remit". It is not even clear whether one or two knives were involved.

So, if it turns out that there WAS fault on the part of the homeowner, will all those who are currently particularly vocal on this matter be coming back to admit, equally vocally, that they were wrong?

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 13:35

Kelly

I said that, given the choice, I would choose being hassled over being dead. I've said it a few times and it hasn't changed. If you think I'm saying something else, that's your affair, but you're wrong.

"And, maybe you ahve not said those things, but you certainly have not said anything here that gives you the right to call anyone else unpleasant and stunted or even to say they are more unpleasant and stunted than you." you see, I think it does. I think that NOT saying and not believing those things - i.e. that I am glad a man died and that his family deserve their grief - DOES make me a better person than someone who does say and believe them. Again, if you see it differently, that's your affair.

pigletmania · 20/09/2011 13:37

Well I am sure that the homeowner was acting in self defence, two uninvited intruders armed, invading his house and threatening his life, hardly come for a cost cup of tea and a chat have they

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 13:38
  • Sorry. Piglet!
BupcakesandCunting · 20/09/2011 13:39

No, it isn't the biggest deal. Who said it was? But if you put yourselves in the shoes of the Cooke family, it must be pretty intimidating to look out of your window and see the associates and family of the dead burglar loitering outside your house. FFS, what did they do to invite the likes of him and his merry gang into their world?

Some people might argue that the homeowner is at no fault whether he stabbed him once or five times. You're sitting watching You've Been Framed, waiting for your wife to come back next thing, you're confronted with two skullfucks with knives wanting access to your safe. Ever heard of being shit-scared and flipping out? I doubt that there will be too many people queuing to beat the homeowner with a shitty stick if it turns out he went OTT. He didn't ask for this.

pigletmania · 20/09/2011 13:40

Not saying the family should not feel grief, the way they are parading about like that is dreadful

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 13:40

"Well I am sure that the homeowner was acting in self defence, two uninvited intruders armed, invading his house and threatening his life, hardly come for a cost cup of tea and a chat have they" - no. Assuming that was what happened. At the moment we only have the homeowner's side of things, don't we?

Hence the police investigation.

TotemPole · 20/09/2011 13:41

I do have sympathy for his family.

No matter what he's done they are still going to feel the loss and be grieving. However, I think it's disrespectful of them to be laying flowers outside the home.

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 13:41

Bupcakes

I have also said, very explicitly, that if it is found that the home-owner was acting in self-defence, I hope he gets off.

At the moment, though, that if is still an if.

onagar · 20/09/2011 13:42

Saying that a burglar forfeits their rights when they enter your home is obviously not true in a strict sense, but I don't think anyone thought it was. It's more about moral right than legal ones.

You do lose the reasonable expectation of being allowed to go about your business.

If you are walking in the park you have a right and reasonable expectation to be allowed to continue to do so without interference. If you walk into a bank you wouldn't expect to be treated as a bank robber, but assumed to be a customer with innocent intentions.

When you break into someone's house you lose that assumption and should expect to be treated as a criminal (which you are now) and a potential thief/rapist/murderer. The householder has no way to tell which you are yet, but you have ruled out innocence by breaking in.

You haven't so much lost the rights (I think someone pointed this out earlier) but rendered them inapplicable to your current situation.

MIFFLAW you say "if it turns out that there WAS fault on the part of the homeowner, will all those who are currently particularly vocal on this matter be coming back to admit, equally vocally, that they were wrong?"

About what? we are discussing the rights of a homeowner to defend himself. It could turn out that the homeowner was an illegal alien on the run from the law in the US for mass murder and that the guy who died was selling knives for £4.99 and the family forgot to mention this little sideline.

If so what would that prove? We are pointing out that homeowners do have the legal and moral right to defend themselves while you are saying cowardice is the best policy and that the rights of criminals outweigh everything else.

We will still be right and you will still be wrong.

jen127 · 20/09/2011 13:43

Sorry mayorquimby don't actually see that written in my posting must have forgot and assumed that I had a right to my opinion just like you.
The sad part of this situation is that there are no winners only losers on both side of the fence