To have no sympathy for the burglar

[Mitmoo]

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

agree its just a sad fucking mess

one man dead, he may have been scum but he had family, parents etc
one man fucked and traumatised for life I guess

I agree it needs to be investigated but hope he gets off

"No doubt I'm back in la la land, but I would still say that that was preferable to death. I mean, looking at things dispassionately, putting aside the rights and wrongs of it for now, you'd rather be hassled for compo than get stabbed to death, wouldn't you? I know I would. That's probably the woolly liberal in me coming out."

Well yes, being hounded for compensation is preferable to death, obviously.

I was just trying to make the point that you'd probably be wrong to assume that the victim is going to have a nice life like he had before this whole sorry mess kicked off. I would imagine that the victim's associates will see to that. And what has he done to deserve that? I mean apart from having stuff that other people wanted?

mayor,
I said self defence. If you attack of make a person feel they are going to eb attacked, then the courts will not uphold your right to life and punish your victim.

Milf,
Sorry attacking someone with a knife and then being shocked that you get stabbed is as stupid as putting your arm in an arm removing machine and being surprised your arm got removed.
And the relatives have no right to go to the crime scene and lay flowers there. There loved one was repsonsible for his own death, they should feel guilt and shame towards his victim and not try to compound his misfortune by turning up their as if their relative was the victim. The householder is the only victim, not them. They were let down by their loved one, he died thorugh his own actions. The families of the 7/7 bombers did not turn up to the memorial serices, or go to the bombsites weeping and laying flowers, despite the fact that they lost young sons. they behaved with quiet dignity, and went to their gravesites in private.
And the offender is dead, therefore gets no trial and is not protected from libel and slander. He will get an inquest where his death will be decided upon, and it will be here that it is decided if he was in the process of criminal activity when he met his death. there will be no presumption of guilt or innocence here.
As there has been no inquest it cannot be a given that the householder killed the intruder anymore or less than it can be a given that the deceased was an intruder and his co-conspirator was an intruder.

"I mean, looking at things dispassionately, putting aside the rights and wrongs of it for now, you'd rather be hassled for compo than get stabbed to death, wouldn't you? I know I would. "

Miflaw - you mean the homeowner should be actually grateful if he gets harassed because this is ithe better outcome?? How about not setting the foot inside this persons house, so nobody would get killed. FFS.

OK Orm, right you are. :)

Porca

I agree with you. If this man acted in self-defence then I hope he gets off.

And if he didn't, then I hope he gets the same punishment as anyone else would get for the same crime.

So simple, this woolly liberalism lark.

"Miflaw - you mean the homeowner should be actually grateful if he gets harassed because this is ithe better outcome?? How about not setting the foot inside this persons house, so nobody would get killed. FFS."

No - I mean the homeowner should be grateful that he is not dead. I know I would be. It could so easily have gone the other way. It's nothing to do with rights and wrongs. I am saying that death is a worse outcome, for most people, than almost any sort of life that doesn't include constant pain or brain death.

My words are fairly straightforward, I think, there's no need to twist them into something they're not.

"perhaps we could, at least for a couple of days, cut a bit of slack to the family of a dead man while we wait and see how it pans out?"

Come on now MIFLAW - give over playing this moral highground.

I'd have the flowers removed - because what that family are doing is an extension of the violation aready committed at that house. It feels intimidating.

It also makes it impossible for the homeowner to return to his house. He'll no doubt have to sell up.

"mayor,
I said self defence. If you attack of make a person feel they are going to eb attacked, then the courts will not uphold your right to life and punish your victim."

Exactly so when acting in accordance with the law and the rights being enforced as such. This in no way means that any rights have been lost by crossing the treshold. What happens in cases of self-defence is that their are two competing rights to life and the person acting in self-defence's right to life trumps their attackers.
However saying that a burglar forefits their rights when they enter your home is either poorly worded and not thought through on the part of the statment maker if they are simply stating how the law operates with regards to reasonable force as it is patently not true, the burglars rights continue to exist as they always have within the paradigm of the law, or else they are saying that they believe a burglar actually forefits all of their rights which is saying precisely that the judicial process or relavent law no longer applies.

"they should feel guilt and shame towards his victim and not try to compound his misfortune by turning up their as if their relative was the victim. The householder is the only victim, not them." so the child of a dead person is not a victim if that person died doing something wrong? His wife is no victim? his mother? They haven't suffered, no?

What a poisonous thing to say. Let's hope your own children never let you down, eh.

"this moral highground" - of course. This is about a moral highground. Spot on.

Well, call me heartless and batter me with the Daily Mail but if a known violent scum who beat a man to a pulp is no longer drawing breath after twenty years of criminality, I'd say that was a pretty good outcome.

Secondly, I spat out tea at the comment that his family is innocent.
Did his wife not know of his filthy little life, then? Did she think he worked in Asda or in the local bookies?
Not only did she know, she must have happily colluded with it and spent his ill gotten gains.
You lie with dogs, you get fleas.

No-one is saying that the deceased isn't a victim! Just that it is unnecessary to mourn your loved one at the scene of his latest (bungled) vile crime.

Spare a thought for the wife and son of Mr Cooke who've had their world turned upside-down by this. Then on top of this, they have the dead bloke's family loitering outside their house, making them feel even more intimidated in their own home.

But no, you're quite right. It's all about them, isn't it? Not about the family who didn't ask for any of this to happen.

the homeowner should not complain if his attacker's family try to get more money from them because their relative failed in killing him. Right!

I certainly hope that there are compensation claims, from the victim to the attackers estate! I certainly do not think they will succeed in any claims against the householder, especially as no-win no fee practices are being clamped down on.

Oh no Jilly, his wife was on the church committee and often knitted matinee jackets for african babies. She's as shocked by this as the rest of us.

Aw bless, course she is.
I mean, no decent woman with a shred of moral fibre would live with a man who took a knife to terrorise other women and children.
She can't possibly have known what an absolute piece of dogshit he was

Let's explore that, actually seeing as MIFLAW keeps banging on kindly reminding us that a loved man , a loving father and husband has been murdered.

How many of us here would live with and off a man whose idea of bringing home the bacon was threatening innocent people with a knife? I mean, really, what sort of person does that make someone who chooses to live with a man like that?

"the homeowner should not complain if his attacker's family try to get more money from them because their relative failed in killing him. Right!"

Who on earth said that?

Right, starter for ten: Would you, personally, rather be:

a) dead

b) hassled

c) I don't understand the question - is it "Matt Cardle"?

That's the only point I was making.

Jilly

You really do come across as an unpleasant and stunted individual. I'm sure you're a great gal offline, though.

How is it poisonous to say that the householder and his family are the only victims. The attackers family are not victims, no-one has committed a crime against them. If they feel sad the one to blame is their relative. And if I fucked up my parenting so much that my child beat someone to a pulp and then tried to rob a family home at knife point, I would be overwhelmed with shame and guilt towards the victim, and have the decency not to go standing ouside the victim's home.
If his family are victim's they are victims of the intruder, and in liklihood themselves. their callous behaviour towards the victim and his family is not making them sympathetic characters.

Neither.

I'd rather be alive and NOT being hassled for "compo" or revenge by this knuckledraggers family, because his attempt to rob me went tits up.

That's one you left off your multiple choice.

Oh and stop trying to belittle other people, MIFLAW, by insulting them. Board books and Matt Cardle... Argue like a grown-up, please.

Having been a victim of burglary I feel that anyone who enters my home uninvited with the intent to Rob/ Steal or harm my family have lost their right to human rights.
The dead man's family knew full well what he was up to as he was a career criminal. They lived off his ill gotten gains.
How horrific for the victims of this horrific crime to be subjected to his family coming to their home and laying flowers. Surely they should have some respect! Their actions sum up the type of people they are.
Having been subjected to a burglary, I know from experience that you cannot in any way determine how you will act until you are in that situation. Each situation is different and the factors surrounding each varied. I would be prepared to kill any intruder who threatened my family in my home. What choice would you have? I know which one would be easier to live with if it came down to the wire. :(

"Right, starter for ten: Would you, personally, rather be:

a) dead

b) hassled"

"I feel that anyone who enters my home uninvited with the intent to Rob/ Steal or harm my family have lost their right to human rights."

So you believe that should you incapacitate them you them have the right to enslave them,torture them and sell them for profit?

Bupcakes knuckledragger

But then, I am clearly unpleasant and stunted

"And if I fucked up my parenting so much that my child beat someone to a pulp and then tried to rob a family home at knife point, I would be overwhelmed with shame and guilt towards the victim, and have the decency not to go standing ouside the victim's home." And you would not feel any sense of loss, or grief, or pain, no? You would not suffer? I mean, yes, of course there is the shame and guilt. And the sense, perhaps quite right, perhaps not at all (after all, no one is BORN a criminal, or a drug addict, or a thug - children are born children and become those things, and not always because of something the parents do or don't do) that you have failed as a parent. And the wondering whethert therefore you could have done something different.

But also the genuine pain that you have outlived your own child and have to bury him. And I reckon that's something nearly every mother and father would feel, however "bad" they are in other respects.