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AIBU?

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Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
BupcakesandCunting · 19/09/2011 14:28

I think that the homeowner has already had his punishment; sitting in his own house, he finds himself threatened by two aggressive burglars (whose motives are as yet unclear) and he winds up in this mess. He didn't go out looking for it, nor did he plan to murder anyone. He probably acted in a split sceond's reaction. He has now got to live with that forever and, presumably, with this dead bloke's associates making merry hell for him for some time to come.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 14:28

Ormirian He has to be arrested, and hopefully dealt with very sympathetically by the police, he has been bailed which is totally right, now the man has the ordeal of not knowing if he will be charged while walking past the floral tributes to his burglar outside of his own home. That's crass.

I hope they investigate extremely quickly and if the burglars were indeed armed with knifes that the decision is taken really quickly that he should not be charged.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:29

Mayor

You make a fair point but that query was actually specifically to Jilly who has been very vocal in giving us all lessons about what's right and wrong in this case. She was apparently talking, not about what she imagines she WOULD do when threatened with a knife, but what she DID do. And I am curious to know what it was.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 14:29

I totally agree with Bupcake

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:29

And he might have wound up dead or maimed even if he hadn't tried to defend himself,LadyGooGoo. It does happen,not all burglars are 'just' interested in taking one's goods and money.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:30

agree completely ormirian, due process still must be followed and the man investigated completely.

Although it's burglary rather than attempted burglary.

Kewcumber · 19/09/2011 14:31

"a few years there was a high profile case, where a burglar broke into a man house, and the home owner killed him and was give a life sentence" I think you are alking about the Tony Martin case - he set up a trap for burglars and lay in wait with a loaded shotgun then shot the burglar in the back as he was running away.

Whilst I am sympathetic to the intense anger he must have felt at repeated burglaries over the years, he was unable to convince a jury that it was self defence in that case.

Grappling with an armed intruder and his mate and one of them getting fatally stabbed (quite possibly with thier own knife) seems a much clearer case of self defence.

The home -owner is having a nightmare visited upon him by these two criminals. I doubt even if he hadn't been burgled in this way that he would have taken a knife to another human being and illing them. Now whatever happens he has to live with the knowledge that he killed someone. However much he rationalises it to himself that it was self defence (and tbh its hard to judge in the absence of facts currently) he still knows he killed someone.

His life has changed and he didn't deserve that.

I don;t think burglars deserve to be killed but I think if the facts bear out the popular view of events then it is difficult to blame the homeowner.

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:31

I see.I thought that you were saying that he should be punished no matter what,OrmIrian,and considering some of the utterly ridiculous posts that I've seen so far on this thread,carrying a knife doesn't mean intent to harm,or that burglars need to defend themselves against agresssive homeowners,it wouldn't have surprised me.

Ormirian · 19/09/2011 14:32

Is it? Even though they hasn't taken anything. Doesn't that count as breaking and entering (or whatever the term is).?

effingwotnots · 19/09/2011 14:32

there needs to be clear evidence that he used the knife to injure the homeowner, and was also going to use the knife with intent to harm.

This is untrue! and in fact one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read

For the offence of aggravated burglary to take place, just entering the premises with the knife is sufficient. It's not for the homeowner to ask the burglar what exactly he intends to do with said knife ("oi mate, you gonna stab me with that or is it just for decorative purposes and effect....")Hmm

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:32

cool miflaw, lots of posts racking up quickly so I probably didn't read it properly.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 14:33

Could you look your wife in the eyes if she'd been raped because you didn't?

As a sort of aside, have you read The Gift of Fear?

Read it, honestly, it's sobering stuff.

altinkum · 19/09/2011 14:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

onagar · 19/09/2011 14:33

altinkum there have been such cases, yes. However the test was supposed to be something like "was it reasonable that you might suppose you were in danger" so a burglar at 2am in your bedroom qualified, but a little old lady offering you a brochure at your front door at midday did not.

The miscarriages of justice are the reason the Prime Minister has emphasised that you are allowed to defend yourself and has promised a new law to spell it out more clearly

Ormirian · 19/09/2011 14:33

And there was me just thinking how many blood thirsty vengeful people there appeared to be on here today Wink

LadyGooGoo · 19/09/2011 14:33

Onager you are quite right, we don't know that all terrorists are bad men, I would say though that the majority seem to be young, disillusioned men.

It is easy to dismiss the perpetrators of crime as bad, scum etc. Divorcing them from normality and distancing them from yourself.

Might make you feel better, but won't extend your abilities to understand and counteract such behaviour though.

Could phrase all this so much more coherently if there wasn't a baby crying Smile

Brb

OhdearNigel · 19/09/2011 14:35

"it is simply entering a building or any part there of without permission and with the intent of committing an arrestable offence "

No, it's not. There are 3 offences which make it burglary - theft, criminal damage or GBH. It used to be rape as well but that has been rescinded as it is covered by a new offence in the Sexual Offences Act 2003.
It is NOT any arrestable offence.

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:36

I fail to see how defending one's home and family makes one bloodthirsty or vengeful.

nextchapter · 19/09/2011 14:36

YANBU

For me you lose all your rights the moment you illegal enter somebody elses property and disregard their rights and the law

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 14:37

How could he escape? They were barging him at the door. Do you really think they would have stepped aside and said, " On ya way mate, we'll just help ourselves. This knife? oh, that's in case we want a bit of cheese later, hungry work, this. "

MIFLAW, I told him to put the knife away, I wasn't scared of him. I wasn't, he did. Make of that what you will.

I was bloody scared an hour later, though! Grin

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:37

"Is it? Even though they hasn't taken anything. Doesn't that count as breaking and entering (or whatever the term is).?"

Burglary is entering a building without permission and with the intention of committing an arrestable offence, it has nothing to do with theft although theft or robbery are the most common intended offences. If someone entered a house without permission with the intention of raping or assaulting someone on the premises this is burglary, even if at no point have they even considered stealing anything.
The crime is committed at the point of entry with the intention of committing an offence regardless of the persons success in actually committing the offence.
So in this case (if the facts reported are accurate) at the point where they forced their way past the man the crime of burglary was committed. If they had the knife with them when they entered it is aggravated burglary.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:37

Jilly

I spent several years as a functioning alcoholic. I lived in fear on a daily basis. I don't need to read a book about it, thanks.

"Could you look your wife in the eyes if she'd been raped because you didn't?" I don't know, to be honest. However, as his wife was not even in the house when these men turned up, I suppose that this scenario is statistically unlikely. Either he lashed out - in which case, he was defending himself, not his wife - or he killed a man to protect his wife from a threat that hadn't been made, which must surely count as premeditation.

Again, I am interested to hear how you personally dealt with being threatened at knife point.

altinkum · 19/09/2011 14:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhdearNigel · 19/09/2011 14:38

Personally I think "good riddance to bad rubbish". I can't be bothered to write a massive post on the legalities of this issue, especially as the full facts are not known, but I am confident that there is no chance at all whatsoever of this man being prosecuted.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:39

apologies ohdearnigel, thought it was still the same as Irish law which is 'an arrestable offence', didn't realise there were differences. cheers for correcting me, always good to learn something new.