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Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
bemybebe · 19/09/2011 14:16

"But carrying a knife does not, de facto, imply intent to do harm." Then they should carry imitation weapons. IF it is not their intention to use these weapons.

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:16

I must remember that if I ever see a man with a handgun in public that he probably doesn't intend to shoot anyone or anything,but in fact has it because it looks great with his new outfit.

CustardCake · 19/09/2011 14:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hardgoing · 19/09/2011 14:16

I feel desperately sorry for the homeowner, but if it is reported correctly, I think that instinct not to let a knife-wielding pair of guys in your house was the correct one. He had every reason to fear for his life, given that they were two of them, they had a knife, and were prepared to use force/violence/threats to directly secure entry. Not quite the same as a burglar going in the back window with a knife in his pocket, is it? (which is inexcusable enough)

Jamillalliamilli · 19/09/2011 14:16

Bupcakes "We have the right to work without fear of being attacked or verbally abused. We will actively prosecute anyone who does not obey this."

Thank you :D

LadyGooGoo · 19/09/2011 14:18

I do have sympathy for the burglar.

He died, I know nothing about him...all the assumptions on here about him being drug taking low life scum are just that, They are not facts. Someone died and left people behind who mourn him (though crassly insensitive to put flowers outside the house).

Also, the homeowner was rightly arrested for murder. A man dies ans police arrest the person who they suspect did it. They don't get to change rules as they go along.

"It's ok he was a bad man" or "he had a knife, you say, well I believe you, no handcuffs for you then"

They arrest, investigate and release or prosecute.

As a final aside, the people on here that are attacking those with an alternate view is poor. No real debate is possible because if you don't hold the view of the majority, your opinion is ridiculed.

Kewcumber · 19/09/2011 14:19

"Charging the guy with actual murder" - he hasn't been charged just arrested not the same thing at all.

If media reports are correct (and they may not be) - there were two intruders who brought at least one knife with them and it was this knife that stabbed the man who died.

If those facts are correct I agree that the CPS would be nuts to prosecute.

I have been burgled whilst I was in the house - I still have no idea whether I would confront a burglar who surprised me. And I went on safety training run by the post office (living in one) about "give them the money". Its still ard to predict how you'd react when you have adrenaline rushing through you - its called the "fight or flight" reaction for a reason!

Ormirian · 19/09/2011 14:19

I don't think anyone who kills another should be allowed to escape punishment. It is the ultimate crime - to take another's life. Worse than burglary. I can appreciate the dilemma but that doesn't alter the basic fact that he killed someone.

SansaLannister · 19/09/2011 14:19

I cannot say I'll be shedding any tears over people murdered whilst trying to burgle or rob someone, no, or that I'll be championing their rights any time soon.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:22

"Also, if i've got a knife to lash out with, presumably the intruder has dropped his - in which case he is unarmed - or I've brought my own along.

I'd say both of those make me a bit less convincing in the "innocent victim in fear of my life" stakes."

Neither of which are necessary for a defence of provocation. All that is necessary is that the actions of the deceased caused the accused to lose self control. this was only to address your question of how stabbing someone in the back who no longer posed a threat could not be murder, I was just pointing out that it could quite plausibly be considered manslaughter and not murder.

Ormirian · 19/09/2011 14:22

It's not about sympathising the the burglar, or shedding tears over criminals ot any such emotional bullshit. It's about upholding the rule of law - that says murder is wrong. Whether he gets prosecuted or not, he should be arrested and the incident investigated.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 14:22

Ormirian If he believed it was kill or be killed then one life had to be forfeited, worse it he could have believed his wife, his childs and his own life would or could be forfeited to a man who had entered his home armed with a knife. Do you think he should have let the burglar decide or even take the chance that he would given that he was armed.

What "punishment" do you think someone who is only protecting his family should receive?

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:22

Even if it is determined that he was defending himself and his family,against two burglars,at least one of whom was armed, and felt that he had no other option available? You still think that he should be sent to prison,Ormirian?

onagar · 19/09/2011 14:23

LadyGooGoo, you say "if you don't hold the view of the majority, your opinion is ridiculed." but that's not quite right. You get ridiculed if you clearly haven't thought it through and are talking nonsense and you get angry responses if you support criminals.

Who else do you feel sympathy for? terrorists? They are just misunderstood aren't they - poor things. We don't KNOW that they are bad men.

altinkum · 19/09/2011 14:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhdearNigel · 19/09/2011 14:24

"Charging the guy with actual murder on the day it happened seems hasty."

He hasn't been charged. He was arrested, interviewed and released on bail pending "further enquiries" and the case will more than likely end up in no further action when he returns on bail. Recent cases in this field of caselaw mean it is extremely unlikely that CPS will consider a prosecution appropriate.

Ormirian · 19/09/2011 14:24

What is the alternative?

Let him go, pat him on the back and say 'Good on you mate!"?

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:26

"So what DID you do when it was you? Disarm the other person? Stab them to death like the homeowner? Or, as I suggest, stay away from the blade?"

Well of course that's what everyone should do, it's exactly what I would do because the risk is that you're going to be the one who ends up coming off worse. But I wouldn't stay away or not attack the burglar because I value their life more than my property, quite the opposite. And if someone does decide to confront them or applies reasonable force to protect their property or family then the law affords them protection.

onagar · 19/09/2011 14:26

Ormirian "It's not about sympathising with the the burglar, It's about upholding the rule of law"

That's ok then because the law says that this was NOT murder at all. When the paperwork is done it will be ruled that he acted correctly under the law. Therefore your argument becomes baseless.

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:26

Why the hell should he be jailed if it was proven to be self defence after investigations have been completed? Are you supposed to allow people to harm you?

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:26

"I was just pointing out that it could quite plausibly be considered manslaughter and not murder."

i'll be honest, I'm no lawyer, you're probably right.

But whether I got off or not, I don't think I could look my family in the eyes if I stabbed a man in the back.

Animation · 19/09/2011 14:27

"He was sat in his home on Saturday night and answered the door whereupon (according to the reports) two men, at least one armed, tried to barge past him into his house - the house that his son and wife were due to return to any minute."

Yes, VERY aggravated class of buglary if you ask me! Bold as brass and prepared to kill you!!

What does a man do in that situation??

LadyGooGoo · 19/09/2011 14:28

Also, it is rare to here a story where someone is threatened, fights back and kills the aggressor.

Usually a news report tells the story where someone is threatened, fights back and is killed.

I don't believe we should be celebrating the fact that the homeowner was so insanely lucky fortunate that when he found two unknown people in his house, with a weapon and the prospect of his wife and child returning, he fought instead of escaping.

The story would not have had the same level of press if the wife returned to find her husband dead because that scenario is all too common.

Ormirian · 19/09/2011 14:28

"Even if it is determined that he was defending himself and his family,against two burglars,at least one of whom was armed, and felt that he had no other option available? You still think that he should be sent to prison,Ormirian?
"

No. If the due process of the law exonerates him, then so be it. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be subject to the due process of the law. Killing someone trumps attempted burglary.

LadyGooGoo · 19/09/2011 14:28

Here? hear