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AIBU?

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Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
onagar · 19/09/2011 14:39

LadyGooGoo, you are right. I'm never going to be able to really empathise with terrorists either. I'm going to have to stick with "kill them all and let god sort them out"

A careful study of crime statistics over a long period has shown that repeat offences by those killed the first time are steady at 0%. It's amazingly effective.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:40

Cross post. So, in other words, you did exactly the opposite of what this man did?

Who knows whether they would have stepped aside? But I do know that most bank robbers who take firearms on jobs use them as a threat rather than for gratuitous shooting - so, insofar as a logical response is possible here, I'm thinking that, yes, the knife was to STOP the householder intervening, rather than to actively seek to harm him. Of course it's a guess - but I think it's a rational one.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 14:40

Ladygoogoo, please tell me you're not a politician or lawyer.

Terrorists are just disillusioned? Jesus, and I thought I'd seen it all.

Tell ya what, why not post that on a 9/11 support forum? Hmm?

Animation · 19/09/2011 14:40

"How could he escape? They were barging him at the door"

Exactly. It's unlikely they wanted him to escape and raise the alarm!!

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:41

"A careful study of crime statistics over a long period has shown that repeat offences by those killed the first time are steady at 0%. It's amazingly effective."

Indeed it is. That's why, in Victorian times, children were hanged for the theft of goods over the value of (I think) two shillings. Perhaps we should go back to those glory days?

PersonalJesus · 19/09/2011 14:41

I would use any implement at hand to defend myself. If a burglar is in my home, he/she is in my space. He/she has no right to be there. I would not take the chance that they may just help themselves to my laptop and leave.

Why should they be able to help themselves to my things, things I have saved up for and worked hard for? What gives them the right to make a person feel scared in their own home for months/years afterwards?

If I thought they were going to threaten my family or hurt my dogs while they were doing so, I would act accordingly. Them or me/us. They lose any human rights they have the second they enter my home illegally.

They have a choice, I don't care how desperate they are that they feel they have to resort to burglary. They choose that life, and they must live - or die - with the consequences of choosing that life.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 14:42

to be honest if it we're me and two men barged into my home, I would be running out the front door, and waiting for my wife and child to come home, and be taken to a neighbours house

If two armed men break into your house they are not going to let you flee to a neighbours house because you'd call the police!

They'd have to be the most polite burglars that ever existed.

LadyGooGoo · 19/09/2011 14:42

LetThereBeRock I'm not saying he should stand passively whilst being attacked. However, all self defence classes teach that the best self defence is escape. That should be the priority.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 14:44

MILFAW How rational do you think people should be when looking down the shaft of a knife in an intruders hand?

LetThereBeRock · 19/09/2011 14:44

Easy to say that when you're not in the heat of the moment. You don't know what you'll do.You don't know if you'll go into flight or fight. It's not easy to be rational then.

Besides as another poster mentioned getting past two burglars who are unlikely to want you to raise the alarm may be easier said than done.

flicktheswitch · 19/09/2011 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 14:45

No changes. the law is the same as it always has been

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:45

"MILFAW How rational do you think people should be when looking down the shaft of a knife in an intruders hand?"

As I have said several times, it has happened to me twice, I was hungover the first time, drunk the second (but not drunk enough to be immune to fear), and I was STILL rational enough not to fight back.

So quite rational.

onagar · 19/09/2011 14:46

MIFLAW, I think that's what posters on here call a 'straw man' argument.

Also it's a bit much to talk about the welfare of children given that we seem to have established that you would refuse to defend any against an intruder and would prosecute those of us if we did.

altinkum · 19/09/2011 14:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BupcakesandCunting · 19/09/2011 14:49

"Who knows whether they would have stepped aside? But I do know that most bank robbers who take firearms on jobs use them as a threat rather than for gratuitous shooting - so, insofar as a logical response is possible here, I'm thinking that, yes, the knife was to STOP the householder intervening, rather than to actively seek to harm him. Of course it's a guess - but I think it's a rational one."

However, what we have now is something that the homeowner didn't: the benefit of hindsight. Even if what you are saying happens to be the case here, the homeowner didn't have time to stop and do an assessment on the likelihood of them harming him or his wife and son who were due to return any minute.

Think about it this way; he knew his wife and son were due back any minute (according to reports, which are backed up by the fact that the wife and son returned to find the burglar dying outside) and you have two knife-wielding blokes at your door, planning to rob you and who knows what else. Do you want your wife and kid walking in to that? Who knows what they'd do to two people disturbing their activities? It's well-known that burglars become aggressive when disturbed.

Anyway, my point is that the homeowner had limited time to think and act. He acted protectively in a rash minute, not like a health and safety risk-assessor.

onagar · 19/09/2011 14:50

How about we have a national database of those homeowners who say you should cooperate with burglars and those of us prepared to defend ourselves. That way means we will be left alone and the burglars can go about their 'work' undisturbed.

They'll only have a small list of places they can burgle but they can do each one weekly :)

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 14:51

Um, they tried to force past him at the door.

ThePrincessRoyalFiggyrolls · 19/09/2011 14:52

I haven't got all the way through but here is how I feel:

I don't believe it is can be easy for anyone who takes a life in the way this homeowner has. He will probably be regretting the actions that he took, whilst being relieved that his family remained safe. I am sure he would have preferred to injure this guy rather than kill him as death is a harsh consequence for burglary. However these two burglars carried a lethal weapon into someone's home, I am sure that their intention was to cut up some cheese or butter some bread however they may well have been carrying it as a tool of the trade so to speak, the likelihood is however that if you take a knife with you you are going to be threatening someone which is massively unacceptable.

I know that if someone came into my home with a knife and threatened me with it I hope I would fight back, if they threatened my children I wouldn't even feel guilty. Sorry. I would only hope that I did enough to incapacitate the burglar, however in the heat of the moment a couple of mm can make the difference between life and death (arteries etc) and not being medically training in anyway shape or form I am not sure I would be able to be accurate in my aim!

There is a very fine line here I think as we don't want people to be able to shoot first ask questions later. I hope when the full information comes out that the right decisions are made. I think it seems a bit hasty that he was arrested for murder immediately but is now out on bail or what have you.

Andrewofgg · 19/09/2011 14:52

LadyGooGoo your explanation about terrorists is right up there with Harriet Harman blaming the riots on the increase in tuition fees.

Not all terrorists are bad men. A small number of them are bad women. But apart from that I am afraid that you are writing bollocks.

LadyGooGoo · 19/09/2011 14:53

Onager, you have solved crime, the ever increasing population and pressure on resources.

Also the unemployment rate would plummet with all the new vacancies for grave digging that would arise with your hard repeat offence deterrent Grin

The danger of AIBU as I have to regularly repeat to myself is that you find yourself responding to questions you had never considered.

Onager mentioned that terrorist were as an amorphous group, bad. I was merely pointing out that nothing, once you have left childhood is so 2 dimensional, black or White.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 14:54

The other guy legged it, BTW.

It was the evil killing homeowner what phoned 999.

Scum really does attract other scum, doesn't it?

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 14:55

Like I say Ladygoogoo, go have that conversation on a 9/11 support board.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 19/09/2011 14:56

really cheeses me off when people only read half a post, you will have noticed, I said specifically that, there hasn't been any reports to say he was held against his will, nor was he forced back into the house, reports have said they barged into the house!,

I'd imagine they didn't report it because it didn't need to be reported. Two armed burglars are hardly going to let him get past them so he could call the police and get them arrested as they carry out the burglary.

They'd have to be Dumb and Dumber.

MIFLAW · 19/09/2011 14:57

Sorry, WHAT is a straw man argument?

There were no women or children in the house. Fact.

The man apparently opened his door without checking who was behind it - personally, I think that's odd.

And, no, I haven't said anywhere that I would not defend myself or my children against an intruder.

I have said that I would not defend my PROPERTY against an intruder if I thought that (s)he could do lasting harm to me or my family - and i don't think waving a knife around (rather than using it immediately) is a very good indicator of that. I would be especially worried that, in tackling a man with a knife, I or moy family would LOSE.

I have also said that I would not stab a man in the back; and that, however bad a criminal is as a person, there may well be other, innocent people harmed by his death.

In other words, I think that taking a human life is a very big deal. This man did it in the heat of the moment; people on this thread are implying that, heat of the moment or not, it was somehow okay because the man was a burglar. And it really isn't. It's certainly not something I would brag about. I think I'd be in bits, to be honest, just like this man probably is.

I suspect he's got even less time for that sort of old bollocks than I have as he now has a human life on his conscience.