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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Saying grace in school before lunch

291 replies

iambach · 18/09/2011 22:02

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

OP posts:

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 22:16

I was right-I knew that anyone in hospital had to have access to spiritual comfort if they want it NHS chaplaincy here It is another thing that the secular society want to get rid of here which would be a shame when people are alone and frightened. C of E is the state religion-it is in schools, hospitals, prisons etc

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 22:18

Prison chaplaincy here here
Both Houses of Parliament begin with prayers here
It isn't as if schools are singled out.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 22:25

I think that they do a good job. If you suffer real trauma in your life they are one body that you can get immediate help from,they don't put you on a waiting list or say you can see a counsellor next Thursday.
It is handy for DCs to have a background at school so that they know this. You don't have to be a member of the church or even a Christian to get this help.
When a local boy was murdered, the local vicar opened the church. He didn't do a service he just spoke and had silent reflection. The church was packed with young people and the boys parents went-they found it helpful. My DS came, I was amazed-you couldn't get anyone more scathing. He found it helpful. Who else does this-on the spur of the moment-without lots of organisation. He simply opened the building and was there. He wwasn't expecting any payback-it was a community thing.

seeker · 20/09/2011 06:23

You don't have to be be a nominal Christian to receive hospital treatment. You can, if you wish, opt in to a service provided.

You have to be a nominal Christian to get a state funded education. Or you have to opt out. Thereby missing out on an element of the community life of the school and making yourself conspicuous in a way that many children would find uncomfortable. This is the reason why many parent, myself included, did not choose to opt outofvthe religious elements of school. Opting out is not really an option. It is a cop out for Christians who have what they want and are happy with their views and beliefs taking precedence over others.

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 08:03

"Quite right wsth-I can't seeit happening these days-you don't have to say anything-just remain respectfully silent."

These are 4yo upwards we are talking about.

They will join in with what everyone else in school is doing.

Even if they are of a different religion.

That is not on.

No-one has explained on this thread why it is important to have religious worship in state schools at all as far as I can see. But the idea that there not be worship, which to me is a neutral stance, has been greeted as "indoctrinating athiesm".

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 08:06

I find it interesting that the christians on this thread, while so protective of their religious practices and the enforcement of those practices as part of state school attendance, are seemingly to indifferent about the requirements of other faiths. Apparently if Jews and Muslims and Hindus are praying to Jesus, because their school does it and the parents haven't any idea it's happening, that's not a problem. So what, apparently. And if these children (4yo up) want to join in with the full school community they must adopt a religion that is not theirs, within school hours.

It's bollocks, quite frankly. The more I think about it, the more wrong it is.

seeker · 20/09/2011 08:14

I think many people don't understand the difference between secular and atheist.

And many people think, wrongly, that atheism is a belief system.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 08:23

Apparently if Jews and Muslims and Hindus are praying to Jesus, because their school does it and the parents haven't any idea it's happening, that's not a problem.

Of course they have an idea it is happening-it is clear in the edcation acts. I can understand that atheists don't understand that it is a Christian country (although I still don't see why they think it has changed from their own school days) but Muslims, Hindus etc know that it will be Christian or at least ask the questions-if my DCs were doing to school in a country with a different culture I would at least ask.
Hindu know that their DC is going to get all the Christian festival etc. In my experience they embrace the differences-not shut their DC off. It helps enormously in a class if you have a DC of a different faith and they have been very proud to tell us all what they do as a Sikh etc. They also go into assemblies-it is all part of the rich tapestry of life. Their parents expect them to get an insight into other faiths-not be converted.
There seems to be a huge fear that your DC can be brain washed-I trust my DCs-they can sort things out for themselves. Teach them to question everyone-including you.
I don't know why people can't use it as a basis of discussion-it is all the big philosophical questions. Even 5 yrs olds are interested given the chance and not just cut off with the parent saying 'bunkum'-end of story.

4 yr old have no religion-they are the DCs of............ They will make up their own minds. It is very tough that you are born into a family and you get stuck with following the parents.
Christianity is the favoured religion because we are a Christian country and we have a state religion. School is one chance to explore it-how many atheists would take their DC to church if they asked? How many would dare ask? They are free to reject it-which the vast majority do.
Once church and state are separate you will get 'either or' at the moment they come together-in schools.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 08:26

I don't know why agnostics don't get more of a mention-they never do.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 08:27

I think it would help more if they knew the difference between secular and non denominational.

StopRainingPlease · 20/09/2011 08:33

When they are small they certainly can be brainwashed. DH and I are both atheists but DD came home from school in the early days believing everything she was told there. 4 year olds do not make up their own minds - they follow the people around them. (And yes, this often does mean following the school rather than their parents, teachers are infallible don't you know? )

I am happy for my kids to be taught about religions, but this is not the same as them being expected to pray, say grace, sit in assemblies listening to stories about God, etc.

France is a Christian country but they separate church and state and there is no religion in schools - wish we could do the same in the UK.

PassTheTwiglets · 20/09/2011 08:34

I don't know why agnostics don't get more of a mention-they never do.

We don't hear from them as much because they don't have a strong opinion either way, I suppose.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 08:42

I never understand why people can be so sure either way-it is faith.

Of course 4 yr olds love it when they start school, it is a whole new concept they have never heard about before and so exciting. (especially if there has been no mention in the home)
People hate it because before school the parent is all powerful, as in 'my mummy says' and suddenly they start school and they are replaced with the world according to Miss X ! A huge shift. It then all dies down and by 8yrs you get what they think if lucky-(if unlucky what their friends think).
The wise parent uses it for discussion.4 yr olds are old enough. 5 yr olds are fascinated about death and the big questions-it is the adults who can't handle it.

PassTheTwiglets · 20/09/2011 08:50

I never understand why people can be so sure either way

Speaking only for myself, I require evidence before I believe in something. It is impossible for me to believe in something that goes against every law of physics that we know.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 08:55

Obviously lots of people believe strongly either way. Scientists are the same-plenty of scientists are Christian-or other faiths. I am just surprised that more people don't say they are agnostic. Maybe they are not bothered about worship in schools.

notevenamousie · 20/09/2011 08:58

Non-denominational is completely different to secular - surely it means that it is not aided by any particular church?
Why so threatened by God being mentioned? If you are comfortable in your views, why haven't you talked to your children about them before now?

I think YABU (but am a Christian and DD is at a church school where they use the liturgy in assembly so from a different viewpoint)

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 09:10

"Why so threatened by God being mentioned?"

As an atheist I don't feel threatened by God being mentioned as something some people believe in. I feel annoyed though if my children were told to believe in him and made do acts of worship.

It's really simple - if you want respect for your religion, then respect other people's world view to and don't force it onto their children

seeker · 20/09/2011 09:27

Nobody is saying that god shouldn't be mentioned. Of course he should, as part of RE lessons.

Why is it so hard to understand that it is wrong to make being at least a nominal Christian a prerequisite for fully participating in a state funded provision?

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 09:33

In response to why some atheists are so bothered (yes, FWIW, I am one of them):

Imagine that you live in a society that's a perfect carbon copy of ours, more or less. Except that, instead of the christian god the most revered being is highjumpy-longjumpy, the almighty invisible twin grasshopper.

You sneeze. Highjumpy-Longjumpy bless.
Have food. Thank you for your rich gifts, highjumpy-longjumpy.
Your spouse dies. It's all part of highjumpy-longjumpy's plan.
You'd like your kids to attend the nicer of two local schools. But do you and your family revere highjumpy-longjumpy enough?

Except, of course, you know in your heart of hearts that this Highjumpy-Longjumpy business is phoney. You know it was God who created the world and gave you all these things, don't you? And, frankly, it's crazy that you should have to accept for your children to be exposed to this false grasshopper stuff. So you start to complain and, while you're at it point out some absurdities that are commonly being peddled.

You're told this is a highjumpy-longjumpy country and you should respect people's beliefs.

poormesomemore · 20/09/2011 09:50

Can I just point out the the UK has no state religion.
England has CofE (as the established church and therefore State)
Wales does not have a state church/religion/established church
Scotland has the Kirk
N.I also doesn't have a state church/religion/established church

Should children be made to say grace to a God - no. If you don't go to religious school.

Lets say thank you to the dinner ladies and eat.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 09:53

"Can I just point out the the UK has no state religion."

Are you sure - I thought "UK" stood for "United Kingdom" - and since the Queen is also "Defender of the Faith" I thought that there is a direct connection between church and state via the monarch?

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 09:56

Widow, poorme is actually right in this regard. Doesn't affect me, unfortunately, since I am in England.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 09:58

Alright, must have misunderstood that one then.

poormesomemore · 20/09/2011 10:00

The queen is head of state of the UK but also happens to be head of the church of england (defender of faith refers to anglican state chrch in england). which is legally only the offical state religion in England so yes I am sure. The Unted Kindom of great britain and northern ireland due to a complicated acts of union and various religious/church laws does not have a state religion. (NI, Wales and Scotland fought against having CofE as their state religion - mainly as it was not their major denomination, so many many years ago CofE stopped being state religion in them only in england, the Kirk i think are slightly diferent history wise. the welsh refused to pay to a churc they didnt attend (in the 1800s/1900s))

PassTheTwiglets · 20/09/2011 10:12

NotADude, am LOVING your post about highjumpy-longjumpy. Fabulous. That's it exactly.

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