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AIBU?

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Original poster

Saying grace in school before lunch

291 replies

iambach · 18/09/2011 22:02

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

OP posts:
NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 17:17

X-Post, I absolutely do not think children must believe as their parents do. I do think that spiritual beliefs should be the result of careful consideration. Presenting the dear lord Jesus as a lunchtime fact to children too young to be fully versed in critical thinking is not helping with that, IMHO.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 17:20

exoticfruit - if you don't like the grasshopper, how do you feel about His Noodly Goodness? There's even a book and He gave us the 8 I'd rather you didn'ts So there's plenty of material to study.

We even have a noodly christmas tree topper at home Grin - and there's a Pastafarian in Austria who's wearing ritual headgear on his driver's licence photo

Would you be happy for your child to be taught this doctrine as truth?

Ramen. And Arrrrh, obviously

MillyR · 20/09/2011 17:22

Following on from seeker's post, I want my children to nurture their spirituality, which is why I don't want them to study RE. Most people in the UK no longer have anything more than the most superficial involvement with religion. It is ridiculous to still be suggesting to children that religion in general is the primary path to spirituality when most of the UK population have a spiritual life that is based on non-religious experiences.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 17:22

Unless it is a faith school I haven't ever seen it presented as fact, or had the idea that you can't question it. In fact you I have had very interesting discussions with DCs-they are interested in the big questions.

You have to bear in mind that many Heads and teachers are not comfortable with it and they manage ways around it. I would say that the majority of assemblies are not Christian-they play lip service with a hymn and 'a prayer if you want to make it your prayer'.
I agree that 5 yr olds don't get the subtle difference-but they don't get a lot-over time they do.

I don't think that schools should have collective worship-I am not arguing! I believe very much in them getting RE teaching-in the same way that I think history is essential to give an understanding of the world. I am not arguing for it!

I have just been trying to say that while church and state are intertwined you won't get it removed-hence my solution with 100 or more parents removing their DC.

I am more concerned with DCs having freedom of thought and not having to follow the parent because they parent has made up their own mind and they are RIGHT! I suspect that many posters, especially if they have had a religious upbringing, differ from their own parents and yet they are supposed to be so sensible themselves that their own DCs must follow!

My cousin had a very religious mother-therefore she was anti and her DS has followed his grandmother-she had no influence-she died when he was very young. My cousin isn't happy about it but he is.

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 17:28

But you don't like the idea of your DC being given the freedom of thought to worship the grasshopper.

How would you feel about them being offered the freedom of taking part in an islamic act of worship. Say one following the Saudi style, ultra conservative, for which girls were obliged to wear headscarves and would have to pray behind a partition in the same room?

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 17:32

"I can't see why they can't be exposed to all religions and understand they have the choice."

But most religions aren't open to choice, are they? Certainly Christianity is pretty absolute, looking at the decalogue it clearly states

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments"

(Exodus 20:2?6)

So either you fully observe your religion, which means your intolerant of other faiths and worldviews, no matter whether their atheist, polytheist or monotheist with another God, or the whole exercise is pretty pointless anyway, isn't it?

MillyR · 20/09/2011 17:34

Most Christians don't belong to denominations that teach that the bible is entirely true, so quoting bits from the bible doesn't reflect the beliefs of Christians.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 17:36

MillyR - so you're now saying that the 10 commandments don't reflect the belief of Christians? Wow.

MillyR · 20/09/2011 17:43

Well yes, isn't that well known? Roman Catholicism is the biggest Christian denomination and it is very keen on graven images. There was a whole reformation about it and related matters.

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 17:54

Well, to be entirely fair to the RC church we'll have to admit that the specific case of the English reformation may also have had something to do with the king at the time having been a seriously entitled arse who wouldn't take no for an answer.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 17:59

Neither the English reformation nor the one on the continent removed the ten commandments though or turned Christianity in a religion which sees any other religion as an equally valid world view.

Just look at the book of common prayer, or the baptism liturgy.

MillyR · 20/09/2011 18:04

It is the other way around. The less Catholic churches are keener on the inerrancy of the bible. The Catholic Church believes that the will of God is revealed through time, not just through the Bible.

The Catholic church is not as 'intolerant' of other religions as these biblical quotes make out. The Catholic church recognises the Jews as God's chosen people and would consider the 'out of Egypt' bit to be referring to Jews, not Christians. The Catholic church teaches that Judaism is a route to heaven if you are Jewish, and that Islam is a route to heaven if you are a Muslim. It is in the catechism.

It is simply not the case that to fully observe a religion you have to be intolerant of the religious beliefs of others. None of that, of course, is a justification for worship in schools.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 18:11

"The Catholic church teaches that Judaism is a route to heaven if you are Jewish, and that Islam is a route to heaven if you are a Muslim. It is in the catechism."

Can you reference that one, where in the catechism do I find it? That the Christian God is the same as the Jewish God is clear, after all Jesus was the Jewish God's son.

Also, you only make reference to Abrahamitic religions. What about Buddhism, Hinduism, Greco-Roman Polytheism to name but a few?

MillyR · 20/09/2011 18:13

The Catholic Catechism is online, so you can search for it. It was a very long time ago that I looked up their stance on other religions. As far as I can recall, the catechism says that they don't know what happens to Buddhists after death.

AliGrylls · 20/09/2011 18:17

seeker - would you be more happy to send your child to a school that prayed to satan or God?

These threads really piss me off for the basic reason that most of you who send your children to faith schools are essentially hypocrits. If you can't stomach it then move your child otherwise, quit complaining. The school won't change because it is a CHRISTIAN school and why should it suddenly water itself down for you.

culturemulcher · 20/09/2011 18:17

YANBU

I don't think it's appropriate to ask everyone to worship a Christian (or any) God. And don't get me started on school assemblies...

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 18:18

Nononono, MillyR, it don't work that way. You can't claim that you've looked up something years ago, and that's what you remember, hence it is true, and when challenged instead of referencing your claim just tell me and google it myself.

Show me where exactly the catholic catechism says that Islam is equally valid to RC, and that they don't know what happens to Buddhists after death.

I'm betting my eternal soul you won't find it.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 18:20

AliGrylls - but you don't have a choice in the state education system, that's the whole premise of the thread. I'd be more than happy to send my children to a secular school.

culturemulcher · 20/09/2011 18:22

Blush oops thought this thread had 1, not 11 pages. The discussion has moved on...

MillyR · 20/09/2011 18:23

It does work that way. The Catechism is based online and it is very easy to search it and thus find out the churches' opinion on anything. I'm not providing an admin service. It is very easy to look up, and the onus is on you to do so if you are making comments about what Christians do or do believe without ever having read the text which contains the stated beliefs of the largest Christian denomination. If your opinion was based on actual knowledge you would not be asking me where to find the catechism, because you would already be familiar with it!

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 18:26

FWIW, I'd bloody volunteer to run a non-religious state school!

It's also absolutely not fair to accuse people of hypocrisy over this. In the village where I lived as a primary school aged child, for example, there only was one primary school. Are you suggesting people move to a different town in order to avoid having their children at a particular religion's school?

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 18:31

MillyR, you're making the claims without being able to support them. FWIW, despite being an atheist, I've been brought up by devout protestant parents, and spent nine years at a catholic grammar school, with getting the German equivalent to an A-A* every single bloody year in RE.

So my opinion, that your claim that the catholic catechism isn't quite sure what happens to buddhists after death is bullshit, is based on a pretty extensive religious education and not on a (likely) misremembered online search from years ago.

So, either provide evidence for your claim, or I'll stick to my assumption that you're making something up about something you actually have not much knowledge of.

WidowWadman · 20/09/2011 18:33

By the way, I know where to find the catechism, I even have a dead-tree copy on my bookshelf. I'm just saying that it doesn't contain what you say it does.

MillyR · 20/09/2011 18:56

It is within article 9.

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 18:57

culturemulcher I agree with you Grin

"If you can't stomach it then move your child otherwise, quit complaining. The school won't change because it is a CHRISTIAN school and why should it suddenly water itself down for you."

Is this statement meant to say that anyone who is not prepared to have their child worship a christian god should not access state education in the UK?

Or has someone not read the thread properly?

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