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Original poster

Saying grace in school before lunch

291 replies

iambach · 18/09/2011 22:02

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 14:54

Sorry=I really havn't time-I'm supposed to be doing other things-hope you can understand it-one of my most badly written posts ever!

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 15:15

Um, the five pillars of Islam are nothing like the ten commandments! Though shalt give to charity? Though shalt go on a pilgrimage? Especially: thou shalt witness to Mohammec being the messenger of god?

Yeah, I thought not!

That's not to say they are not similar. You'll find that Islam explicitely understands itself to come out of the Jewish then christian tradition. But the example you're citing is dead wrong.

I don't think you understand what I meant by the grasshopper metaphor, by the way. That having been said: you illustrate it nicely: obviously you find it ridiculous and absurd. Please accept that, from an atheist perspective, your god seems kind of like that. Hence why some of us get so annoyed when we're asked to show respect for the idea of him.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 15:24

I really haven't got time to study it. Obviously a Christian should give to charity and they go on pilgrimages all the time-still do.
Comparison here
There are things that I want to study more. If I were to go into it properly I could study Christianity or other World religions for the rest of my life and never run out of material or know it all. I can't study they giant caterpillar in the sky-there is nothing to study.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 15:25

Sorry-I was making the assumption he was in the sky-I don't think it was specified.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 15:27

I have also remembered he was a grasshopper!

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 15:54

"You go around the playground and gather opinion. If a lot of people are not happy about with collective worship but don't want their DC to be different by withdrawing them you all agree to withdraw them and then they are the norm."

Then the norm is that a bunch of children are excluded from assembly.

Can you really not understand why people don't want their children to miss assembly?

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 15:55

Or lunch. If they're saying grace then what are the non praying ones supposed to do? Troop in after the prayer? If the argument is that it is a moment to quieten down etc then that plan's not going to work.

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 15:56

OR why not exclude religious worship from community schools. Job done!

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 16:05

If all the parents withdrew their DCs from assembly there would be no assembly! I think that you missed my point.
You say that no one want it, but they don't want to make their DC different by withdrawing.
All withdraw-the DCs in assembly are different. Job done.
You could wait for the state to separate from the church, but your DCs will have left by then. Mine is a quick solution. Or are you saying that the bulk of parents would choose to send them?

Grace is neither here nor there. I just tested the most commonly one used-it took me 4 seconds and I wasn't garbling. I'm sure they could let it pass over them for 4 seconds! They don't have to say it.

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 16:10

That's not the point, though. Would you want your children exposed to daily thanksgiving to the grasshopper? Would it make a difference if it were no more than four seconds?

seeker · 20/09/2011 16:13

And as I keep asking, how would you feel if your child was asked to give thanks to Satan every day?

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 16:16

I think it unlikely that you would be able to find a school where 100% of the parents were willing to withdraw their children from assembly Confused

I think very few parents would be willing to remove their children from assembly. That's the whole point. I think then when parents are looking at their children they are unwilling to take action that will single that child out. A promise that "loads of other people are doing it too" wouldn't wash. And the school couldn't stop assembly as according to the law they have to do it.

I think maybe you don't know many people? You don't seem to understand very well how they behave, or how they behave when their children are involved, or how they behave when they are given a straight choice between marking their child as different or having them worship a deity that they don't believe in.

SardineQueen · 20/09/2011 16:17

"Grace is neither here nor there. I just tested the most commonly one used-it took me 4 seconds and I wasn't garbling. I'm sure they could let it pass over them for 4 seconds! They don't have to say it."

Why is it neither here nor there? It is a prayer. The children will say it as everyone else is, the children are aged 4 upwards.

You don't seem to understand how children behave either, TBH.

PassTheTwiglets · 20/09/2011 16:23

We want assembly, we just don't want it to be religious!

So you dismiss the grasshopper because it's a new idea, yet you give credence to a Christian god because the idea is very old? I don't understand this idea of something being more deserving of respect, or more believable/studyable just because it's an old idea. Should we all go back to studying alchemy then?

seeker · 20/09/2011 16:44

I end up asking the same questions on all these thread, and I nevr get answers.

Would the Christians be happy to send their child to a school where they had to give thanks to Satan?

If I am over reacting and one little prayer makes no difference either way, why are Christians so determined to keep it?

Why does anyone think it's ok to impose their views on others? I am not imposing my secular/atheist views on anyone- I am just asking that prayer is not part of the 6 hours children are at school. People of faith have another 18 hours a day ton worship. And there is no reason why children who should not pray at school if they want to- they could add their own thanks to God to the non- religious moment of contemplation before meals that would replace Grace, for example.

hocuspontas · 20/09/2011 16:53

I think a better way of dealing with the god-slot in assemblies would be to have the normal birthdays, work-sharing, successes etc then the HT say that anyone wishing to pray to stay behind with her after everyone else has filed out and then have a little prayer together. I bet there'd be hardly any takers but the NC box would be ticked. (This would be quicker to implement than waiting for disestablishment to happen)

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 16:53

There's another factor, too: peer pressure or, more likely, the desire to fit in and be normal.

I actually went to Sunday school for some time for exactly that reason when I was a child. As you can tell it didn't work on me; I still don't think it's right for children to either have to participate in religion or be "different".

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 16:56

Hocuspontas (or anyone):

Can you name one good reason to maintain prayer at all in favour of something that applies to all children equally?

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 16:57

I have been a supply teacher-I have sat through more assemblies than the average person and at a wide variety of schools. I think that I have a pretty good idea of how DCs behave!! Hardly any say grace. Ask the average 4 yr old to tell you what was said and they couldn't-their mind is on other things like who they are sitting next to. If they are not a faith school most, not all, make it quite clear that you do not have to join in, you do not have to speak-you do however have to be silent when others do-not a bad thing for a DC to understand.

I wouldn't be at all happy with the great grasshopper. There is no history, there is nothing to read from the finest scholars through history and some of the finest minds today. I couldn't go to museums and find out anything about it-I couldn't go to different parts of the world and see historical sites. It would be no help to me in times of crisis. I couldn't have great philosophical discussions about the meaning of life-that has anything to do with something physical like a grasshopper.

The parent might not believe in a deity-the DC might. My cousin was of the 'great pixie' in the sky persuasion. Her adult DCs life revolves around his local church.

They will make up their own mind-I can't see why they can't be exposed to all religions and understand they have the choice.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 17:01

I did answer the Satan one- way back and give reasons.

No one has answered mine-why do you feel that your DC must think the same as you?
Maybe at 6 yrs they have a very spiritual side-maybe they like chance to express it. (or are 6 yr olds not allowed to have views-is it all brain washing?) It seems to me perfectly OK for the parent to tell their DC what they must think but any different view from someone else is brainwashing.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 17:03

Sorry-hardly and schools say grace. It is very rare, if not a faith school.

exoticfruits · 20/09/2011 17:03

any-not and-I am having a bad day for typing!

PassTheTwiglets · 20/09/2011 17:06

No one has answered mine-why do you feel that your DC must think the same as you?

I answered this a while back - nobody here does want our DCs to think the same as us! We want them to think for themselves and to question things - which is why it is absolutely wrong to present as fact something for which there is NO evidence.

I can't see why they can't be exposed to all religions and understand they have the choice.

Well you're on the same page as the rest of us there! That would be fantastic if that happened. However, in schools where the Christian faith is presented as the norm then it doesn't set the right tone for children to think for themselves.

seeker · 20/09/2011 17:08

I don't expect my children to think the same as me. And want my children to nurture their spiritual, transcendent side. That,'s one of the reasons I think RE is a good idea.

And that is one of the reasons I don't want one of the most trusted adults in therm lives telling them that there is one way to be spiritual and that is the Christian way.

NotADudeExactly · 20/09/2011 17:08

Well, if in a parallel society the grasshopper religion was dominant all these things would be there. That was the whole point of the analogy.

Never mind that bit. I'll try and be more explicit: as far as atheists are concerned, the christian god is just a pretty random idea. Some would say a really badly thought out random idea, hence the many contradictions. Granted, it's an old idea but, as people have pointed out already, that in and of itself doesn't make it any better.

You seem to find it a helpful idea in times of crisis and for philosophy etc. To someone like me it's a collection of stories and traditions centered around an imaginary entity which, frankly, sounds like a major arse a lot of the time.

What is the benefit of children of people like me worshipping this entity? Why can children of parents who think it's all lovely not do so at home?