Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Saying grace in school before lunch

291 replies

iambach · 18/09/2011 22:02

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

OP posts:
CustardCake · 19/09/2011 17:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LaWeasel · 19/09/2011 17:57

I think most people don't really care, or are happy to identify as Christian even if they are non-practising and couldn't really tell you anything about it or what their denomination's beliefs are.

It's a bit like the huge difference in the number of people who fill in their census forms as Christian and the number of people that actually do to Church.

There aren't enough passionately athiest/agnostic/humanists for a policy change.

LaWeasel · 19/09/2011 17:59

I'd like a humanist school though, that would be my preference.

PassTheSpookyTwiglets · 19/09/2011 18:14

Custardcake, there are always campaigns to change it but I think, as LaWeasel said, that there aren't enough people who care. It probably seems like a lot of people object because they are the ones who speak out - but for every person who speaks out there are probably 200 who don't care or who are happy with it. I can't see it changing.

hocuspontas · 19/09/2011 18:20

You'd never get a bill (or act is it?) through the House of Lords with all those bishops even if the country was united in disestablishing the church. It will take a revolution! Anyone up for it?

Moominsarescary · 19/09/2011 18:42

I don't have a god onagar and like it's allready been said you can opt out, and no my kids preying to satan does not make me shudder, which form of satanic worship are you thinking of? Allthough I realy can't see many forms of satanic worship catching on.

What does make me shudder is parents making a big deal out of something that primary school children wouldn't even care about if it wasn't for the parents making it an issue

What is it that actually bothers you about it? If you have no beliefs why not just explain that some people have beliefs and it's just something that schools have to do, my children understand this and have no problems with it

I guess you don't celebrate Christmas and the birth of baby Jesus or the mythical fantasy that is Santa if you don't believe children should be preying to some mythical being in the sky

PassTheSpookyTwiglets · 19/09/2011 18:49

What does make me shudder is parents making a big deal out of something that primary school children wouldn't even care about if it wasn't for the parents making it an issue

Children not caring about something isn't a good enough reason to not make a fuss if you feel strongly about it! My kids couldn't care less aabout eating vegetables - does that mean I shouldn't bother about it either?!

CheerfulYank · 19/09/2011 18:58

When I taught preschool the kids said "We wish for food, for peace, for happiness, for all the children of the world." :)

We do grace at home but I would be a bit Hmm about it being done at a state-funded school.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 19:08

Why, if so many people find this objectionable, isn't there more of movement about changing it? So many people come onto MN genuinely furious that their 5 year old has been made to say prayers so either they don't know that worship is required in schools (even non-church ones) or there are not enough people who care about it so much that they object, withdraw their children or try to change it.
Genuine question

You do get a skewed idea on MN because you get everyone coming on to be very anti-the majority don't even bother to take part.

I read these things and my head says that Christian worship has no part in schools and yet given a vote I would go with the status quo. I rather like the fact that part of the day is given over to time for reflection, that my DCs know traditional hymns and that they reflect on the best of human traits-being a good friend, being honest, helping the underdog etc. I realise that you could do all this without Christianity but I think that it would just get missed.

I also think that most people can't be bothered. They jump up on down on here going on about little pixies etc. I generally give them the link to the secular society- but I doubt they even look-never mind join and constructively campaign-they forget about it until another thread turns up and then start again about the great pixie in the sky.
given here again

onagar · 19/09/2011 19:10

Moominsarescary, firstly the satan thing is an example to explain a point. I'm sorry you didn't get it. Can you think of anything that someone might make your kids do that you might object to? How about if we have the children repeat "gay people are sick freaks" before meals? After all some people believe that.

Your kids would be able to opt out though so would that make it ok?

If you would find that objectionable then you agree with me in principle that just because someone believes it doesn't make it right to make it part of compulsory education.

I guess you don't celebrate Christmas and the birth of baby Jesus

Oh please. Do you really need that answered?

Christmas is a celebration that we got through another year. At some point the church changed the day that they claimed jesus was born so they could combine the celebration.

you really didn't know any of this?

Most people are enjoying the older celebration which is all about being with family and having an orgy of food and presents. Nothing to do with baby jesus - if he existed.

I'm not a big fan of Santa as it goes, because I don't think lying to children is all that healthy. We've always managed to keep it a game that wasn't real - like the stories of dragons and pixies. You will read on MN though of parents who have thoroughly convinced their kids of his authenticity only to complain that the child is now distraught after finding out the truth.

The nice thing about religion though is that we can all have our own way. If we teach about religions in school and keep the actual practice of religion for church and home then everyone can be happy.

Except those who want their religion forced on others of course.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 19:14

I think that Santa is very healthy and if DCs think they were lied to they must have a problem relationship with their parents.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 19:26

custardcake I suspect that schools in areas where there would likely be a problem use a form of words that does not mention god or jesus and so is acceptable across all faiths or none.

The law does not mention jesus, only the letter from the then secretary of state and as such I do not believe that letter has been included on the statute books.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 19:28

I think that people on this thread forget that at many schools in the UK, there are large populations of children who are not christian, and not even culturally christian, and it is just not on to make them pray to Jesus. Which is why in most schools where it is an issue, I suspect they don't.

Moominsarescary · 19/09/2011 20:23

It doesn't matter if the church changed The day of what I believe to be a fictitious baby Jesus to fit in with a fictitious man who handed out presents, if you can make santa a game that isn't real why can't you do that with a few preyers before a meal.

As for having children repete " gays are sick freaks" before a meal, is that realy a comparison you want to make? Some people believing in a " god" compared to people thinking gays are " sick freaks"

My children read children's bible stories when they were small, don't think they ever thought of them as anything more than just stories. It didn't do them any harm and certainly didn't made them believe in religion. however they came to that conclusion by themselves without me getting offended about them doing something that I dont believe in.

Would it realy be such a bad thing if your children decided to believe in a god that you don't, because it's coming across on her like it would be for some people

Meteorite · 19/09/2011 20:28

YABU

seeker · 19/09/2011 20:52

The statutory requirement is for 51% of the collective "acts of worship" ars broadly christian in nature. Note the "51% and the" broadly" Nothing about daily Christian worship and saying grace.

I just can't understand why Christians think that their beliefs trump all others! Very odd.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 20:56

Would it realy be such a bad thing if your children decided to believe in a god that you don't, because it's coming across on her like it would be for some people

No one has ever explained to me why it is important that their DCs think the same or why it would change their relationship. I believe in God-my DCs don't-so what? Am I supposed to mind? I never supposed that they would think the same as me because I gave birth. I don't think the same as my parents. I find it very weird that you need them to think the same.
You may be an atheist and the mother of a vicar-you may be the vicar and the mother of an atheist-they have as much right to freedom of thought as anyone. They may change-people do throughout life.
I have no idea what I will believe in 5 yrs time.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 20:59

Collective Worship is legally required to take place every school day and ?shall be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character? (1988 Education Act).

I don't think that you can get clearer than that seeker. There is no requirement for grace.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 21:00

The 51% is the least

stealthsquiggle · 19/09/2011 21:02

it wouldn't / doesn't matter a bit to me if my DC opt for a belief system which I don't share. Same rules for them as for anyone else - as long as they don't preach them at me, their beliefs are their own business.

whenstrangethingshappen · 19/09/2011 21:04

I was once given 'detention' and my parents informed at the end of the day while I was in Juniors for refusing to say grace at dinner time. (I went to a local state primary)
I have no problem with Children saying thank you for what we are given but telling me that I must say thanks to a god that I didn't believe in is basically wrong. In most things in life you can choose to include god/religion or not (guiding, scouting, armed forces etc) why should school be any different? Saying thanks is important but telling children from a very young agae that they must say it to God isn't - if we are meant to let them choose then that doesn't assist that process.
So no OP YANBU. Oh and my parents told my headmistress in very sharp words that I could not be made to say words I did not want to and to make me and punish me for not doing was an infridgement of my rights as a person.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 21:12

Quite right wsth-I can't seeit happening these days-you don't have to say anything-just remain respectfully silent.

seeker · 19/09/2011 21:42

Look, I don't care- broadly speaking- what my children choose to believe. But I object very sternly to the fact that in order toarticipate fully in the life of any state school in this country, country, children are expected , at the very least, to pay lip service to Christianity. imagine if you had to be a nomiNal Christian to be treated in a hospital. Nobody would agree to that. So why is getting an education different from having your tonsils out?

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 21:46

I think that you will find that you have access to a chaplain in hospital if you want one. I think you will find a quite chapel somewhere if you look. You don't have to have anything to do with it. You don't at school-you can opt out. You can go along and just sit respectfully while those that want to take part.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 21:47

sorry-quiet chapel