Saying grace in school before lunch

[iambach]

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

substantiallycompromised how does you post tie in with the fact that there are non christian state schools in existence in the UK?

I suppose it has to be because they went to a faith school and assumed they were different.

custardcake I assumed you had not read it because you said this:

"The law requires most worship to be Christian, it must be everyday and it must afford a special place to Jesus Christ."

This is not true. I also don't think that law states that the worhsip "must afford a special place to Jesus Christ"? I thought it just said it should be broadly crhristian in nature which is a completely different kettle of fish.

SardineQueen

Custardcake has already explained it,
"they can merely opt out of Christianity by opting to adopt a different religion instead. There is no option of state school + no religious worship at all. "

I only went to schools that 'declared' a denomination, so yes, I assumed that the ones that didn't kept things as neutral as possible.

Am pretty annoyed to find out that they don't, even if my kids will probably be going to a Christian school anyway (it's just what we're in catchment for)

exoticfruits I don't understand why you equate not having a pray in primary school, with indoctrination in athiesm and talk of sky pixies?

What harm does not having a pray do?

substantially but she said that after I had made that point for the second time

And she says that the law says worship must afford a special place for jesus christ. The law doesn't say that.

It has been the case since 1870.
A very good explanation is here
They can apply through SACRE for change from Christian but it has to be to another faith-you can't change to no religion.

You don't actually have to pray-but you have to sit respectfully silent.

exotic I know that

But I don't understand what harm not having a pray does, and why you equate that with indoctrination. How can not doing something be indoctrination?

this provides further basic info

This bit is interesting too:
"In September 2007, attempts to create the first secular school in Britain were blocked. Dr Paul Kelley, head of Monkseaton High School in Tyneside, proposed plans to eliminate the daily act of Christian worship, and "a fundamental change in the relationship with the school and the established religion of the country".[17]

Personally, I think it would be useful if schools could opt for a humanist approach instead of simply swapping one religion for another.

There are non christian state schools in the UK substantially. There are quite a few Jewish schools around here.

How that ties in with the quote "a fundamental change in the relationship with the school and the established religion of the country" I don't know, as that relationship has already been broken in plenty of schools.

I love saying grace. Although I've only said it when I've stayed with my relatives in the States, they're strict Catholics. We said it at their wedding receptions too .

sardine I'm no expert (live abroad) but I think it is explained by this bit (partic. second part of second para.)

United Kingdom

The Education Act 1944 introduced the requirement for daily prayers in all state-funded schools, but later acts changed this requirement to a daily "collective act of worship", the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 being the most recent. This also requires such acts of worship to be "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character".[2] The term "mainly" means that acts related to other faiths can be carried out providing the majority are Christian.[3]

Independent schools are exempt from this provision, so it has always been possible to have an independent (not state-funded) school with no act of worship or those of other religions. However, many schools which were originally church schools are now largely state funded, as are some Jewish schools. These are allowed to have acts of worship "in accordance with the beliefs of the religion or denomination specified for the school".[2] Up till 1997 the UK only funded Christian or Jewish faith schools (Muslim schools existed but were privately funded), but the Labour Government 1997-2007 expanded this to other religions, and began using the term "faith school".[4]

Note that the legislation of the United Kingdom varies between the different constituent countries, and thus there are some differences of detail in the educational governance.

YANBU, but then I am not exactly a moderate atheist

"I don't understand how some parents on here say that their dc will make up their own mind about religion when they are older - and at the same time object to them being taught anything about it!"

As an atheist, I certainly don't object to my children being taught about religion. What I object to is that Christian religion is presented as the norm. It would be fine if it wsa balanced out - if the children were told "Christians like to say grace before a meal - let's try it out" one day, followed the next day by "atheists don't say anything beofre a meal - let's try that too" then that would be fine. But being taught about a religion and assuming that you are that religion are two very different things.

Same goes for the "them making their own mind up" thing - yes, of course they are too young to decide at this age - that's why all religions and atheism should be represented equally.

Then all the schools who do a more general thanks / thought without express reference to Jesus are acting illegally.

It does not explain how that ties in with schools of other faiths like we have around here, or schools who have opted to have a faith other than christianity due to a majority being a different faith.

The whole thing seems to be a total mess.

When was that circular sent?

The circular was released in 1993.

This essay on it is fascinating here

But there is NO get-out in that circular for schools that are Jewish.

Hence the essay I have just linked.

The circular is not the law, incidentally. The law does not include the part about Jesus. The circular was released in response to schools asking for clarification on what of a broadly christian nature" meant and is the response given by the then secretary of state.

on the plus side - i have always thought that having this close relationship between church and state meant we (UK) have a much healthier relationships with religion than the USA

By which I mean the US has this supposed division of church and state - religion is not allowed to be taught in state schools, which means they have thousands of religious nuts teaching their kids about religion at home and passing on very weird beliefs about evolution etc. with nothing to counterbalance it. Candidates for the presidency have their belief system questioned and paraded out. Here we have religion in schools, we teach about religion and we have a country happy to have leaders of political parties who are atheist, agnostic, religious whatever. Most of us don't go to church but most of us are also tolerant of other beliefs. We grow up comfortable around religion AND comfortable in questioning it - so we really CAN make up our own minds IMO and are not indoctrinated unlike many people in the USA which is a supposedly secular state (yes I know there is that weird thing about the oath of allegiance!)

I don;t think that if people in primary schools stopped having to pray it would have the effect of making us like the USA in the areas that you raise!

I think that the differences in approach to belief etc come from the fundamental differences in the countries, rather than praying/not praying in schools.

I wasn't thinking of the praying specifically SQ - just the whole way in which we, on the one hand, are surrounded by institutional religion, but on the other hand seem to have a much more "so what?" approach to religion.

Familiarity breeds contempt? or at least indifference?