Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Saying grace in school before lunch

291 replies

iambach · 18/09/2011 22:02

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:02

I think it would be nice if they thanked the dinner ladies. That would be lovely actually Smile

mumeeee · 19/09/2011 10:05

YABU. It is just saying thanks and it gets the children settled and calm before they eat. Our country is actually still a Christian country and as others have said it's law to have a collective act of worship at Schools.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:06

mumeee if your DC went to a school that was predominantly Jewish, Muslim, Sikh or whatever would you feel very happy about them joining in with the prayers?

LaWeasel · 19/09/2011 10:07

I would be unhappy about this if I had picked a non-denominational school for my child.

It's different if the school presents itself as religious, and then it's up to you to decide whether you mind or not... We are not religious but I don't mind that DD will be expected to pray at pre-school because I knew in advance that it is a church pre-school. If I had specifically chosen a non-religious pre-school, I'd be livid.

substantiallycompromised · 19/09/2011 10:11

Nooka not all families who say Grace are fundamentalists!

We're RC - not remotely evangelical in any way, shape or form - we couldn't be described as particularly devout either - and we say it before lunch on a Sunday and sometimes in the evenings if dd wants to. My parents did that, as did dh's parents. It's ritualistic. DD says it every day at her school too.

I don't understand how some parents on here say that their dc will make up their own mind about religion when they are older - and at the same time object to them being taught anything about it! Ignorance is not a good basis on which to make a decision.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 19/09/2011 10:12

I'm also reminded of the parents whose views suddenly change in order to get their children into a perceived 'better' school... in fact, it gives me whiplash. Hypocritical and then some. Hmm

Do the parents who insist on non-denominational teaching ask the question before the child goes to the school? Are they going to whip them out again?

reddaisy · 19/09/2011 10:13

YA definitely NBU. But equally I don't think it is a big deal, just explain like another poster said that: "Some people believe XXX but some people believe YYY. And when you are older you can decide what exactly you believe."

CustardCake · 19/09/2011 10:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NestaFiesta · 19/09/2011 10:14

YABU. To kids, it's like a nursery rhyme and if it makes them stop and think how lucky they are compared to others, then it's no bad thing.

You can't keep your kids away from all religious references- it's not contagious you know!

LaWeasel · 19/09/2011 10:16

Yes, but it doesn't have to as explicit as praying.

If a school hasn't declared a religious position, I would expect a daily opportunity for reflection that was not presented so overtly as being in the style of one particular religion. As well as discussion of religions/celebrating of various major festivals. I would not expect praying directed at a particular god. That is too much IMO.

reddaisy · 19/09/2011 10:18

"To kids it is like a nursery rhyme." Or it could be considered indoctrination from an early age. I personally would prefer it if they learnt a prayer from a different religion regularly so at least it would be educational.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:20

I think that is the problem LaWeasel - that schools vary so much in how much religious worhsip they have, to meet the law. Some do a vague non-dom thanks thing, some get the vicar in regularly and do christianity in a big way. This means that no-one is sure what their school will do until their child is there (if they have even thought about it - many parents choosing a community school wouldn't I imagine give a second thought to religion).

I think a lot of people in the UK also assume that state schools don't "do god" and get a horrible shock when they find out that actually many do.

NestaFiesta · 19/09/2011 10:25

Out of all the kids I went to school with, only one or two of us are religious yet we all said Grace for years at school. I think indoctrination is a bit strong since it doesn't seem to have any effect on future spiritual choices.

Also, and I don't really want to go down this path again as there was a very vociferous thread a while back in which I got quite upset, but this is by tradition, an Anglican nation. You might come across a bit of religion in your path from time to time, say, if you go to a wedding or a funeral, or hear church bells. However, there is freedom of choice in the UK and you are free to choose to ignore.

SnakeOnCrack · 19/09/2011 10:28

Workshy we said the same thing!

Thank you for the food we eat,
Thank you for the world so sweet,
Thank you for the birds that sing,
Thank you God for everything. Amen

We did this at primary school, as well as saying the lords prayer each morning. It really didn't affect me (ie it didn't confuse me, even though my parents aren't religious) in the long run so I would try not to worry! I'm not in any way religious these days either.

piprabbit · 19/09/2011 10:29

When I grew up we said grace before lunch at school, sang proper hymns in assembly ever day, went to church parade with Brownies and Guides and the whole school would trot over to the local church for special services at Christmas/Easter/Harvest.

I managed to grow up without believing in God - although I still enjoy a nice hymn or carol. Honestly - no brain-washing at all Grin.

CustardCake · 19/09/2011 10:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:32

"However, there is freedom of choice in the UK and you are free to choose to ignore."

There isn't freedom of choice though, as all state schools are required by law to engage in a daily act of religious worship.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:34

custardcake did you miss my post to you upthread?

"custardcake if the school has a majority of children of another faith, they can apply to have teh daily act of christian worship changed to whatever the majority faith is. They still have to have a daily act of worship though."

CustardCake · 19/09/2011 10:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 10:35

I don't understand the "indoctrination" of athiesm comments.

Talking about 'pixies in the sky' isn't indoctrination? Hmm I think that it ought to go with 'mummy thinks....' in the same way that schools should say 'Christians believe.......' With the assumption that the DC is free to think what they like-they ought to question school and they ought to question mummy and come to their own conclusions.

I assume that my DCs will get Christianity at school, it is a Christian country-I can opt out. If they went to school in Pakistan I would expect it to be muslim -I can opt out. If they went to school in Malta I would expect it to be RC-I can opt out.
There are schools in this country that have changed if the majority are not Christian-they have to apply and go through the proper channels. I could opt out.
People seem set to deny that we are a Christian country when we are headed by the Queen who is also head of the church. The PM choses bishops. They are intertwined. The day they are separated is the day that schools can do away with collective worship.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:36

There are also schools which are of other faiths - so CofE, RC, Jewish. Obviously at the Jewish schools the ethos and prayer etc is Jewish.

Also community schools with majority non christian can switch their worship to a different religion. Someone on another thread also showed me how this had been used to make the daily "worship" a non-denominational general thanks.

CustardCake · 19/09/2011 10:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

substantiallycompromised · 19/09/2011 10:37

Agree with Custardcake

I think it is worse than that in that many parents expect a non-denominational school to be totally non-religious and are surprised when God crops up!

If those of you who send their dc to a non-denominational school and do not want them to receive any religious teaching at all, then you need to lobby for the separation of Church and State as they have in the US and to a certain degree in France (French secularism and all that). Atm the C of E is the Established church in the UK ie church and state are inextricably linked. So don't blame the schools for carrying out their correct function according to the constitution as it stands.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:38

exotic why not quote my whole post:

"I don't understand the "indoctrination" of athiesm comments.

Surely omitting acts of worship from primary schools isn't "indoctrinating" in anything. Then it leaves parents to do the indoctrination of whatever faith (or not) they choose.

I don't see how not having a prayer at primary school = indoctrination in athiesm? Anyone?"

Where does that mention pixies in the sky? Saying that schools don't have to worship a god every day, is not the same as telling them that they must rubbish religion?

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 10:38

I just fail to understand why parents think things have changed from when they were at school!