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AIBU?

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Original poster

Saying grace in school before lunch

291 replies

iambach · 18/09/2011 22:02

My children attend a small rural school which is 'non-denominational' but everyday they are made to say grace before they are allowed to eat their lunch.

Part of me thinks its harmless as my children will form their own beliefs from all their life experiences not just school, it's just at early primary school age they are so impressionable. It has made for some interesting conversations at our dinnner table and tbh it is hard to explain to them. They see things so black and white, if the teacher says there is a god and i say i don't believe to them i am almost going against what they are being taught by teachers they respect.

Aibu to feel a bit annoyed about this? My Dh feels much more strongly about it than i do, he thinks it is ridiculous!

OP posts:
seeker · 19/09/2011 08:50

The quality of the fingers notwithstanding Grin - the people who say that saying Grace doesn't mean anything and people shouldnget over themselves will never say if they would be happy with their child thanking Satan, or Allah or the Mother Goddess.

sieglinde · 19/09/2011 08:51

I'd have thought associating religion with school food would lead your dcs AWAY from it. Grin Be different if they had to thank the Spirit in the Sky for sweets or an icelolly.

Seriously. They are going to meet people with religious views. They will go to weddings, funerals etc. They will need to deal with that in a reasonably mannerly fashion. I'd just encourage them to equivocate - muttering rather than eager joining-in.

My family are btw very strict trad RCs and my dcs had the same problems in reverse, but it came to the same thing. We don't DO cute little fluffy bunny stuff as purveyed by schools. (Sorry to those who like such things.) We do prayer in Latin, not child-oriented at all. They quite enjoyed their dissenting position. DS would stand proudly glowering at assembly, muttering in Latin while everyone else intoned 'Thank you God', and then offering a verse or so of Monty Python's 'Ugly, ugly, ugly..' Thank you God for everything, including the trans-fats.' :)

Finding this obnoxious? Worth bearing in mind that any strong view is obnoxious to anyone who doesn't share it. Part of meeting the world is tolerating real big differences of opinion.

spookshowangellovesit · 19/09/2011 09:03

i didnt think there was such a thing as a none denominational school in england. ie still sing hymn type songs in assembly's ie he's got the whole world etc, doing the naivety at Christmas.

Blu · 19/09/2011 09:04

I agree Seeker.

Also, don't Christians find it a bit Hmm to have this meaningless 'praying' trotted out as a sort of background wallpaper, a call to order, 'harmless' habit?

Either be religious properly or be meaningfully clear about how children can either sit down in a semi-civililsed fashion, or think about where food comes from, or how the hell their parents will pay the dinner money this term, or whatever it is that schools and parents want out of it.

And disestablishment can't come soon enough, IMO. But why won't it? Ah...the Bishops in the Lolrds, for a start. Totally undemocratic.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 09:04

Satan, Allah and the mother goddess are not part of the culture of this country. UK is a Christian country-people don't realise it until their DC goes to school.
Because worship is the law people have every right to withdraw their DC. Unfortunately I don't suppose they get around to discussing religion with lunch time supervisors.
I think the central theme of Christianity-love your neighbour as youself is very different for satan worship!
I don't see why DCs need to be shielded from religious views.
The one thing I don't understand is the view 'I gave birth, the DC is mine and they jolly well will believe what mummy tells them and no one is allowed to even hint at a different view!' (they won't)

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 09:06

People come and moan over and over again on these threads-I wonder how many do anything consructive with the secular society? My guess is not many.

Marjoriew · 19/09/2011 09:09

Bringing children up to contribute to society in a positive way is what I would call constructive. Not teaching them about an old man with a beard and fairytales about if you are good you go to heaven and if you don't you go to hell.

spookshowangellovesit · 19/09/2011 09:15

my eldest came to me the other day and said she believed in god now because she had prayed when she was sad and had felt better after, she had always strictly said she didnt before this even after going to school and singing hymns etc. she made up her own mind do i think she will change it again, perhaps but i dont believe her being exposed to some songs about god will make that decision any less likely. (last month she firmly believed in reincarnation)

PassTheSpookyTwiglets · 19/09/2011 09:24

I don't see why DCs need to be shielded from religious views.

I don't think anyone is saying that they should, are they? It's fantastic for children to learn about different religions, I just hate that religion is presented as the norm in schools. I don't like the assumption that our children believe in God. They should be allowed to decide for themselves - to me it is akin to teaching Conservative policy in schools and not balancing it out with the other parties.

Moominsarescary · 19/09/2011 09:37

Im not religious but have no problem with my dc saying preys and singing hymes, we did the same when I was at school along with re, they just taught us that some people believe in a god, I can't see why learning about other people's beliefs should cause people to be furious! The school defenatly wasn't trying to force us to believe.

I wouldn't insist my child wasnt to take part in preyers or re, even if I don't believe myself as I feel that is their choice to make. Where does it end, do you stop them taking part in Christmas celebrations or nativity plays and what about Christmas carols about baby Jesus.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 09:37

nooka I went to an RC convent school for primary and we never said grace either.

It was embarrassing when halfway through primary years I moved to a non religious private school, and on my first day the form teacher asked me to stand at the front and say grace. I had no idea what she was on about and had to make something up. Was mortifying.

I also don't think there is any place for religious worship in community state schools BTW. I would rather there were no religious schools funded by the state full stop, but with the advent of free schools which are free from the confines of the national curriculum, I suspect there are going to be many more religious schools of a more fundamentalist nature.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 19/09/2011 09:38

I don't believe that primary school children have enough information to decide on their religious beliefs. I think that some parents are so desperate to let their offspring develop themselves in whatever way the child itself wants, as early as possible. There's a definite correlation there.

How can we on the one had acknowledge that children are sponges and by the same token, not let them learn anything to actually make decisions later on?

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 09:39

Not teaching them about an old man with a beard and fairytales about if you are good you go to heaven and if you don't you go to hell.

Maybe you should have listened more as a DC!!! I think that you may be going back to Victorian times. I am in my 50s and even then we were never taught anything like that-and I went to Sunday school for years. The vicar did at least treat us like adults-with brains.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 09:41

custardcake if the school has a majority of children of another faith, they can apply to have teh daily act of christian worship changed to whatever the majority faith is. They still have to have a daily act of worship though.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 09:43

If people think that Christianity is about heaven and hell and old men with beards perhaps we need more education!!

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 09:43

lyingwitch yes I agree - that is an excellent post explaining why religious worship is not appropriate in primary schools.

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 09:44

Primary school children see things like that, exoticfruits. My DD talks about "the little baby Jesus" I don't think she has any idea that he ever grew up!

Marjoriew · 19/09/2011 09:45

I'm 63, so not quite Victorian:) and brought up as RC in care. I can assure you that even if I didn't want to listen, I had no choice to do so or get thrashed to within an inch of my life and often was.
I don't believe that children should have any sort of belief foisted on them until they are ready to make decisions of their own about what, if any, faith they may wish to follow. Saying grace before a meal at school is something children have to do without any explanation of why they are doing it.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 09:46

The humanist society explain schools and collective worship pretty well here

bibiane · 19/09/2011 09:50

Brain washing started early usually results in Atheism. It worked for me.

However I believe in separation of church and state so leave the prayers at home, children don't need it.

exoticfruits · 19/09/2011 09:54

I think that is pretty conclusive truth that DCs don't believe what they are told to believe Marjoriew-the 'give me a DC until they are 7...... doesn't work. Why atheists should think their DCs are different I don't know. We all make out own minds up.

I would say that if you were brought up in RC care that it was fairly Victorian, so I apologise for my remark. I think that I would be very anti with that upbringing-I'm not sure how being thrashed goes in with the central theme of Christianity. Confused

(Cof E school assemblies are nothing like that)

stealthsquiggle · 19/09/2011 09:57

I think the DC's school uses "Benedictus benedicat" (rough translation: 'May the Blessed One bless') which even as a determined agnostic (as in, it is organised religion rather than the existence or otherwise of any specific deity that I have an issue with) I don't have a problem with. I think a brief pause for thought before shovelling down lunch is a good thing, generally.

greenfingers · 19/09/2011 09:58

iambach my daughters first attended a small rural school too and they all said grace before lunch. I picked it up at home for them as a good discipline before starting their dinner, to just take a second to recognise that food does not just appear magically on the table and to ensure that we are all sat down and ready to start eating together. Twelve years later, they've long stopped saying grace at school, but my 16 and 18 year old still pause every evening before dinner to say "lord thank you for our lovely meal today"! and nooka we are not evangelical, we have no particular belief in god and I'm all for interesting conversation at the dinner table. (must admit though, we are the only family I know who do this, so we are probably a bit strange!)

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:01

I don't understand the "indoctrination" of athiesm comments.

Surely omitting acts of worship from primary schools isn't "indoctrinating" in anything. Then it leaves parents to do the indoctrination of whatever faith (or not) they choose.

I don't see how not having a prayer at primary school = indoctrination in athiesm? Anyone?

SardineQueen · 19/09/2011 10:02

greennfingers at home we thank whoever prepared the meal!