To not believe that 40% of parents want to bring back the cane?

[Voidka]

Really?

• I knew it was you, I remember your namechange from before and recognise your posting style now :) And tbh, after I read back a bit more, I still think Onagar misread. Glad you clarified!

What you mean is, nobody amkes that many types

I trot this name out when I am in danger of climbing up my own arse with my sanctimony: it reminds me but I never bother and try being anonymous, I can't afford a typist to take dictation

Corporal punishment is something to avoid at all costs. I haven't read all the thread so maybe someone put this up already but I read this a while back. It's a summary of a report on hitting in US schools

here

I qoute from it "Nationwide, students with disabilities receive corporal punishment at disproportionately high rates. In Tennessee, for example, students with disabilities are paddled at more than twice the rate of the general student population. ... Students with autism are particularly likely to be punished for behaviors common to their condition, stemming from difficulties with appropriate social behavior"

Does anyone seriously think it would be any different here if we brought it back? All you need is one teacher who doesn't understand dyslexia, aspergers or likewise..and the students are basically abused for being disabled

Likewise, actually even worse, was this Minutes of education subcommittee hearing

Quotes:

"Students of color and students with disabilities are disproportionately subjected to corporal punishment"

"One Mississippi high school student described the administration of corporal punishment in her school this way: "every time you walk down the hall you see a black kid getting whipped. I would say out of the whole school there's only about three white kids who have gotten paddled."

"A Mississippi teacher also noted the racial disparity in the administration of corporal punishment: "I've heard this said at my school and at other schools: ?This child should get less whips, it'll leave marks.' Students that are dark-skinned, it takes more to let their skin be bruised. Even with all black students, there is an imbalance: darker-skinned students get worse punishment. This really affected me, being a dark-skinned person myself."

Read that and ask yourself, do you think we are really any different here? Really? People who want the return of corporal punishment rarely consider the true implications of it

A long and harrowing read but this is what happens when a culture of corporal punishment exists in a society and powerless children are exposed to sadists.

A few people have mentioned restorative justice. Can someone explain to me what that is exactly?

saggarmakers, you didn't go to St Peter's did you?

Lilka

And the sad thing is that people I know who got their ASD dx in the USA generally say the system is far better there. Ihave seen a child with diagnosed ADHD (and I would guess ASD) hauled physically from a room for the crime of bhaving their routiner changed and sp illing some lego in protest (it was that insignificant- threw container about 12 inches from floor in sititng position then it fell about him): imagine if said teacher ahd access to a cane (clue: i'd have got betwen ehr and him and she would have never worked again had I had my way- I'd have been calling 999 on her, sod the head!)

No Greeny - way worse I went to the sink school that St P's have combined with this year into the new academy. Though they were well thought of at the time.

Anyway - how 'at me old mucker?

I don't agree with bringing back the cane, but discipline in schools is going down hill
what do all the people who are against it suggest?
how do we bring back the discipline in schools (state; I suspect that the private schools don't have the state school problem)

It's not just about discipline in the schools though, is it Juggling - discipline at home has to be considered as well. Teachers rightly point out that they shouldn't be doing the job that some parents have failed to do.

Again though, it all boils down to lack of respect. There is so little respect for authority of any kind these days - and that probably comes from the home environment. Respect doesn't require physical intimidation (that's not respect, it's fear) but it DOES need to be brought back in spades. Starting in the home.

Juggling -- here's one idea that has worked pretty well so far. Families have to be interested enough to apply though so it may work because it caters to a self selecting group. Here's the brochure/manifesto.

I think part of the problem is that families see school as part of the wallpaper, one more stupid thing that interferes with their lives. No conscious choice is allowed as to whether children will attend or not. Maybe scrap the compulsory element?

Discipline in schools in particular is not going downhill. Discipline is going downhill full stop. Why must teachers bear the brunt of rectifying that?

And a cane would do sod all but increase violence in schools across the board. Half the kids I taught would hit back it you tried it, their natural instinct. And you couldn't argue against it because you lose the upper hand when you use violence against them. It is such a base measure, I genuinely don't get how some supposedly intelligent people (I presume there were some responding to that survey) genuinely believe it'd work?

Where those schemes exist though Math at least in the UK it can be hard to get places; two schemes for kids struggling exist locally- one for kids thought to be at risk of crime long term, one for young carers (so not naughtty but still likely to get in trouble for being late / homework / etc)

Head refered ds1 at our request to first: three years ago, they never even contacted us. Have been told on the quiet that a child whose aprents are willing to ask is considered low risk.

Young carers? 7 year waiting list,

All the schemes in the world only work if funding is there-I tried to set up a support group for a different struggling batch of kids (siblings of disabled kids)- great I was told, room hire about £50 pw, As if I can afford that!

My daughter has complained of being unable to hear the teacher in lessons since she first started school. Apparently children are disruptive without any punishment and its regarded as the norm. Teachers struggle to keep order and have less time to teach. The sooner parenting classes are introduced into the curriculum the better. Then parents will be educated enough to realise that the disciplining of their children is their responsibilty and not someone deranged waving a big stick at school.

Exoticfruits - perfumedlife is correct - in Scotland, schools don't have control over who the supply teachers are, it is centralised and controlled bu the Local Authority Education department (our equivalent of an LEA). :(

Even worse, certainly at primary school level, the school doesn't even have control over the employment of the teachers it requires - again, it is the Education Department that employs and then allocates.

So you can have the situation (as happened at ds' school) that neither a well-liked and respected (both by kids and teachers) long term supply teacher nor a brilliant probationer teacher (ds said "the best teacher he ever had" - he's just gone into P7) get the "permanent" vacancy at ds' school - even though the school would have liked to keep them on. So we now have a "new" permanent teacher, a new long term supply teacher (as the one we'd had did eventually get a position in another council/education dept) and the lovely probationer will now be doing the long slog of doing supply work as and where she can.

The only positions that school does have control over are promoted posts. :(

No, I don't think they should bring back the cane. Thankfully, at the moment corporal punishment in this country is illegal.

I am of the age now when I can remember seeing kids given "the belt" as school, and I can also remember the trivial things kids were belted for (forgetting PE kit etc when you are 6 years old for example) I also remember during a craft lesson, we were making "macramé" and one boy tangled up a ball of string which held the rest of us up from being able to get ours to complete the task. None of us were involved or responsible and not one of us were misbehaving in any way yet the teacher lined twenty of us up against the wall and gave us six of the belt each! Just because she could! I was eight years old at the time and had never put a foot wrong in school!

I agree that behaviour in schools is deteriorating, but there MUST be other ways of controlling behaviour than beating the hell out of children with canes or belts. Bringing back corporal punishment is not the answer. I'm sure some teachers will be responsible, but far too many others will use it inappropriately.

Those are my thoughts.

Parenting classes were in the curriculum in my school, circa 1988.

But again tehya re never targeted well. I have been to several- as well as introduction to language courses etc etc.

A great idea- except that in my last job I nused to help run bloody aprenting groups, and as faor the language course- I have almost complteed an MA in ASD.

But you have to go or you get kicked off lists.

But then the funds are gone when anyone whoa ctually needs it comes through!

Pah.

Prettybird I jear ya: ds2 has ahd in the last 1 year and 2 weeks- wait for it- 10 teachers. School has serious staff health issues (I think I know why, waiting to see if I am right) and they can't afford LT replacements so theya re going through subs like nobody's business. I can't blame the etachers- one was pg, another 2 sick- but argh!

here ya sorry

typos ahoy: time to go get caffeine

WoleyDoodle,
I totally agree. I was slapped in Infant school, despite being as good as gold. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Authoritatianism is a short term answer, i.e. it does not work.
It hurt me to see the boys at my senior school caned in front of the whole school.

40 years later, it still hurts me to remember these incidents.

I don't think physical violence is ever the answer.

Talk about regression.

Parenting classes won't help unless its targeted and mandatory

Other wise you will have a situation like all the left polices its only ever taken up by those who don't really need it

They type of families who need these classes would never willingly want to do them.

Like one of the boys who bullied my dd the head couldn't even get them up the school to talk about the issue

So how they would get her up for a parenting class is beyond me

Parenting classes if used in any real way should be part of the school curriculum. Too many of my schoolmates ahd their children at 15 /16, but at least they'd already been studying it for a eyar or so by then (although it wasn;t for everyone IIRC: from hindsight it was a 'yes you;re from the council etsates you tkae it' sort of thing. Not Good.

The kids who bullied ds1- their aprents think the sun shiens out of their children's behinds, they'd not fit a aprenting class in between stagecoach drama and french class anyway.

just boyhood exuberance isn't it? Establishing onself as alpha male

Thank goodness he has changed to comp now.

Don't think that many people want it back either - 40% - seriously????

Hitting a child =disciplining for the good of the school , hitting the teacher back= assault.... mmmmmmm would make for an interesting court case..

You can teach practical aprenting quite easily- baby needs X and Y and Z

A baby who does F needs to eb chekced by a gp or if they ahven't done R by a certian chat to your HV

It's amazing how someone can miss out on knwoing about kids just ebcuase they have enver been around any, and the practicalities can get you a long way, especially in the early years.